Historic relations between CAA and its clients

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heinrich
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Re: Historic relations between CAA and its clients

Unread postby heinrich » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:35 pm

Jel wrote:I know it doesn't make it right but isn't this indicative of all govt departments these days... question is how (if at all) can it be made better, and is it generally the way things have gone and once they have gone there they never come back?

Processing I can understand to a point but its the interaction and skill of people implementing the laws that are the main concern... also the interpretation thereof... that shouldn't be an acceptable deterioration...


Valid point. But SARS was able to pull up its socks quite well or what? So it can be done if the will is there. And that starts with the leadership.
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Re: Historic relations between CAA and its clients

Unread postby flypiper » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:53 pm

Hi GL.

Been in all aspects of Aviation for the past 42 years and things has deteriorated to such an extend that i just couldnt handle it anymore.Luckeley
sold my last Av buss in 2017 and what a relive to get up in the morning like a normal person .

Good luck to all out there i still need my AC serviced that are TC.
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Re: Historic relations between CAA and its clients

Unread postby 747TDR » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:02 pm

Jel wrote:
I know it doesn't make it right but isn't this indicative of all govt departments these days... question is how (if at all) can it be made better, and is it generally the way things have gone and once they have gone there they never come back?

Processing I can understand to a point but its the interaction and skill of people implementing the laws that are the main concern... also the interpretation thereof... that shouldn't be an acceptable deterioration...


You're right, it doesn't make it right or any more or less acceptable than it would be if the same standard of service, or lack thereof, is experience with a bank, lawyer, insurance or any other important service provider.

The key to transformation of standards in any organisation is accountability. The way things are in SA, and most developing countries, is that there is always someone else to shift the blame to. Passing the buck is the name of the game. No accountability within the ranks means that nothing is lost whether the end user is helped or not. Life just goes on. A job is retained.

Now living in a developed country, the difference between developing and developed countries is obvious. Everyone does their fair share, whether they truly want to or not, and each is held to his/her own accountability, whether they're the janitor or CEO. People work hard and they work together if the end goal is a common one, and if they're being held accountable throughout.

How much accountability can one expect to find if, right from the very highest levels of government, people either ignore it or have no clue what it means?
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Re: Historic relations between CAA and its clients

Unread postby Backmarker » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:08 pm

Sadly, it would seem CAA has followed Home Affairs, Municipalities, Post office and Traffic departments.

Long Q's, different interpretations of the law, documentation, and processes. It has become almost impossible to get simple things like a travel document, a new ID or new papers for your car.

Home Affairs:
You sit in a q for 5 to 6 hours, then once it is your turn you get told to piss off because your documentation is not in order. When you object as to the vailidity of the documents, and referring to your previous attempt and instruction of what documents to bring by the prevous person you dealt with, you are told to leave.
I even went so far one day as to go back the counter ( after sitting in another 4 hour Q), show them the relevant act, and they still wouldn't help me.
So what do you do now? Do you bribe these people to get them to do their jobs? Or do you pay a "fixer" to get it done for you?
This seems to be the norm these days.

Traffic Dept:

Was told on three occasions by three different people, to bring different sets of documents for the same transaction!

Municipality:
You pay your bill on time, system is down for a few days, all of a sudden a metro employee is threating to cut off your water and electricity without a disconnection notice, but will be willing to let it slide for a donation?

This is getting ridiculous really.
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Re: Historic relations between CAA and its clients

Unread postby Rotor kop » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:24 pm

happyskipper wrote:
Jack Welles wrote:Back in the day I found DCA helpful and efficient. But may I introduce an element of discord in this paean to the past?

Isn't this a two-way street? Back in the day we were all whities who had no problem communicating with each other. Perhaps now we have multicultural situation that may require a little more patience by all concerned?

Also we now have social media where there are some really aggressive (and often extremely insulting) anti-CAA comments/threads. Must be hard to be pleasant to folk who are continually insulting your organisation and/or leaders (even if you secretly think they're dunces!). It still reflects back on yourself because you're part of the organisation.

Be interested to know whether other Avcommers see these developments as possibly making the situation more tense and thus less inclined to be helpful?


Jack - I don't know if it is a "cultural" thing or not, but I find that when it comes to Government or semi-government employees, most employees seem to think that they can make a bit of money on the side by making life as difficult as possible - until a "fee, present, bribe" call it what you will, is forethecoming - and, miraculously, the job gets done in record time. I don't know if SACAA has sunk to this level yet, but I do know that it is rife here in Mozambique.

I do not believe anyone at SACAA is taking bribes. Honestly. It comes down to incompetance and people making changes that have no clue about practical aviation.
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Re: Historic relations between CAA and its clients

Unread postby Marius Schrenk » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:03 pm

heinrich wrote:
Jel wrote:I know it doesn't make it right but isn't this indicative of all govt departments these days... question is how (if at all) can it be made better, and is it generally the way things have gone and once they have gone there they never come back?

Processing I can understand to a point but its the interaction and skill of people implementing the laws that are the main concern... also the interpretation thereof... that shouldn't be an acceptable deterioration...


Valid point. But SARS was able to pull up its socks quite well or what? So it can be done if the will is there. And that starts with the leadership.

No more. :twisted: They owed me R728 000 for more than a year.....after many visits (do not imagine I can afford not the have it back) the friendly lady told me they have two different numbers (in their system) for vat and fuel(diesel) returns....they should communicate in their system...but they dont. :shock: How is that my problem ?....come back tomorrow ! Sorry for the highjack. GL I believe its nothing purposeful its just sheer incompetence of deployees. The one's at the top slowly poisoning the culture lower down. :idea: :(
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Re: Historic relations between CAA and its clients

Unread postby heinrich » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:11 pm

GL I believe its nothing purposeful its just sheer incompetence of deployees. The one's at the top slowly poisoning the culture lower down.


I guess that's also a very succinct way of putting it.
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Re: Historic relations between CAA and its clients

Unread postby Plettflyer » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:41 pm

I had a licence crisis a few weeks ago and needed to get an Isle of Man validation based on a foreign licence changed to my South African licence. Take off in 6 hours. I was given the numbers of two inspectors. The second picked up, listened to my problem, asked pertinent questions and applied common sense along with the correct procedure. Problem sorted. In this case the service was up there with the best in the world. Amazing and thanks again to the CAA.
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Re: Historic relations between CAA and its clients

Unread postby Rotor kop » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:44 pm

Plettflyer wrote:I had a licence crisis a few weeks ago and needed to get an Isle of Man validation based on a foreign licence changed to my South African licence. Take off in 6 hours. I was given the numbers of two inspectors. The second picked up, listened to my problem, asked pertinent questions and applied common sense along with the correct procedure. Problem sorted. In this case the service was up there with the best in the world. Amazing and thanks again to the CAA.

You where lucky, you got one of the handful that know what they are doing.
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Re: Historic relations between CAA and its clients

Unread postby hugo_visser » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:08 pm

OOH MY WORD, went to see Collin in New Zealand today, he is the equivalent to John Lok in SA, on the telephone, inquiries done, 5 min later CAA New Zealand, phone him back, check this and that, done....Difficult stuff made easy. Do not even have to drive there, do not know what to say......

Hugo.
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Re: Historic relations between CAA and its clients

Unread postby Jack Welles » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:41 pm

hugo_visser wrote:OOH MY WORD, went to see Collin in New Zealand today, he is the equivalent to John Lok in SA, on the telephone, inquiries done, 5 min later CAA New Zealand, phone him back, check this and that, done....Difficult stuff made easy. Do not even have to drive there, do not know what to say...... Hugo.

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Re: Historic relations between CAA and its clients

Unread postby jimdavis » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:24 pm

happyskipper wrote:Back when it was still DCA - everyone knew who was who - and mutual respect was the name of the game. Problems were sorted out in a gentlemanly manner, and those few "problem children" on both sides were quickly worked out of the system.

I recall looking forward to a license renewal, because it meant bumping into old friends....


Absolutely spot on Slappy Kipper. I think the point was that indeed everyone knew everyone else. My licence number is, and always has been, 00075. There had only been 74 licenced pilots befor me in South Africa. If anyone stepped out of line, either a pilot ,or a DCA guy, it was usually sorted out with one brief phone call.

And the Air Navigation Regulations consisted of one paperback about the size of a copy of SA Flyer!

Good days

There are just too many people on the planet.

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Re: Historic relations between CAA and its clients

Unread postby Burner » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:31 pm

I don't believe that the break down in relations between our CAA and ourselves is unique to South Africa. I've heard quite a few Brits and other Europeans complaining equally how crap the service at their respects CAA's has become. Additionally that the attitude has changed from ''we are here to help and educate'', to ''we are here to police and try catch you out!''.

I stand corrected, but only the FAA seems to have managed to keep the general good relationship between them self and their clients.

Perhaps it sadly is the way the world is going, where it's all about limiting liability to keep the lawyers happy and off your back. :?
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Re: Historic relations between CAA and its clients

Unread postby pwnel » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:39 pm

Burner wrote:I stand corrected, but only the FAA seems to have managed to keep the general good relationship between them self and their clients.


The FAA is certainly not seen as an enemy. From popular safety seminars to interacting with ATCs (all FAA employees) they are only ever helpful. They're seen as part of the community.

Burner wrote:Perhaps it sadly is the way the world is going, where it's all about limiting liability to keep the lawyers happy and off your back. :?


That would then be contradictory because the US is by far the most litigious country so doubt that's the explanation. I believe the strong US culture of resistance against government becoming overbearing may be what keeps things rational here. The US was after all founded by folks who were gatvol of the British and their regulations. Kind of where SA would be if the Boer War wasn't lost.... :twisted:
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Re: Historic relations between CAA and its clients

Unread postby SaraLima » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:42 am

pwnel wrote:I believe the strong US culture of resistance against government becoming overbearing may be what keeps things rational here.:twisted:

I think you've pretty much nailed it here .. We only have the situation that we have allowed to happen.. :smt045 :mrgreen: We have little "group gripes" but never draw a line in the sand. - Whatever happened to the Unions?

Maybe its time.... :?: :idea:
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