Samora Machel Crash Documentary on SABC 3 at 21:30 Tonight

Aviation chatter - For ALL Pilots and Aviation Enthusiasts

Moderator: Moderators

Re: Samora Machel Crash Documentary on SABC 3 at 21:30 Tonight

Postby T@nk » Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:27 am

I watched the afore mentioned farce last night. They tried hard, but those "witnesses" did not seem close to credible to me.

What I would like to ask the guys who know a bit more than me (I know just enough about aviation to hang myself) is the following:

1. If a false beacon was used, that would have had to be set to the frquency of the beacon at Maputo right? So if you have 2 beacons sending the same signal, what would happen to your instruments?

2. If this false beacon was used, would the sudden change of coarse by 37 degrees (thats what they stated on the show last night) not have alerted the pilots to something being very wrong?
The pen might be mightier than the sword, but some people just can't read...

Wouter Nieuwoudt
User avatar
T@nk
Hee Hee I'm Flying
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:50 pm
Location: Bellville

Re: Samora Machel Crash Documentary on SABC 3 at 21:30 Tonight

Postby Snoopy » Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:28 am

What was /who where the CCB and just how would they get hold of a mobile NDB anyway.... :?:
Last edited by Snoopy on Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Snoopy
10000 and still climbing
10000 and still climbing
 
Posts: 13891
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:54 am
Location: World

Re: Samora Machel Crash Documentary on SABC 3 at 21:30 Tonight

Postby PJL » Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:32 am

Snoopy wrote:What was /who where the CCB... :?:


Civil Co-operation Bureau (CCB)

PJL
To invent an airplane is nothing. To build one is something. To fly it is everything. — Otto Lilienthal

"When once you have tasted flight,
you will forever walk the earth
with your eyes turned skywards."
― Leonardo da Vinci
User avatar
PJL
Fife Thousand feet
Fife Thousand feet
 
Posts: 5731
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:04 pm
Location: Macadamia Valley

Re: Samora Machel Crash Documentary on SABC 3 at 21:30 Tonight

Postby Snoopy » Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:33 am

PJL wrote:
Snoopy wrote:What was /who where the CCB... :?:


Civil Co-operation Bureau (CCB)

PJL


What did they do...
Snoopy
10000 and still climbing
10000 and still climbing
 
Posts: 13891
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:54 am
Location: World

Re: Samora Machel Crash Documentary on SABC 3 at 21:30 Tonight

Postby PJL » Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:38 am

Snoopy wrote:
PJL wrote:
Snoopy wrote:What was /who where the CCB... :?:


Civil Co-operation Bureau (CCB)

PJL


What did they do...



:lol: :lol: :lol: Snoopy you are giving your young age away and I am highlighting the other end of the scale :D They were the goverments "Hench men". A South African KGB or FBI

PJL
To invent an airplane is nothing. To build one is something. To fly it is everything. — Otto Lilienthal

"When once you have tasted flight,
you will forever walk the earth
with your eyes turned skywards."
― Leonardo da Vinci
User avatar
PJL
Fife Thousand feet
Fife Thousand feet
 
Posts: 5731
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:04 pm
Location: Macadamia Valley

Re: Samora Machel Crash Documentary on SABC 3 at 21:30 Tonight

Postby Snoopy » Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:39 am

or not.. :twisted: :idea:

So how did they apparently fit into this whole story...sorry I fell asleep remember.
Snoopy
10000 and still climbing
10000 and still climbing
 
Posts: 13891
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:54 am
Location: World

Re: Samora Machel Crash Documentary on SABC 3 at 21:30 Tonight

Postby kosie » Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:48 am

There is an excellent novel written by my favourite author, John Gordon Davis, with the title Unofficial and Deniable. It tells the story of the CCB (BSB in Afrikaans). In the novel he mentions the building in which they were stationed, the Momentum Mews, in Lynnwood Ridge and he also describes a newspaper journalist character, Jan van der Merwe, whom I happened to know. He wrote a column, The Wayfarer, in the Pretoria News but ended up in jail. In the book the hero and old Jan met in the German Club. The story is largely based on facts but with a few rather bizarre twists which I would find hard to believe. Remember the names Ferdi Barnard and genl Eddie Webb?
Koos Marais
User avatar
kosie
Too Tousand
Too Tousand
 
Posts: 2965
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 11:33 am
Location: 14th Fairway

Re: Samora Machel Crash Documentary on SABC 3 at 21:30 Tonight

Postby Snoopy » Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:51 am

So how did this crowd fit into the military scenario supposedly...or didn't they...just curious :?:

Wiki to the rescue.. I think...

The South African Civil Cooperation Bureau (CCB) was a covert, special forces organisation[1] during the apartheid era that operated under the authority of Defence Minister General Magnus Malan. According to General Malan, the CCB's three objectives — comparable to those of the British Special Operations Executive (SOE)
Last edited by Snoopy on Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Snoopy
10000 and still climbing
10000 and still climbing
 
Posts: 13891
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:54 am
Location: World

Re: Samora Machel Crash Documentary on SABC 3 at 21:30 Tonight

Postby PJL » Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:59 am

Snoopy wrote:So how did this crowd fit into the military scenario supposedly...or didn't they...just curious :?:


They worked indepenent of the military, a bit like the Scorpions but were like a steel fist taking orders issued by the cabinet. Kosie you carry on............... :wink:

PJL
To invent an airplane is nothing. To build one is something. To fly it is everything. — Otto Lilienthal

"When once you have tasted flight,
you will forever walk the earth
with your eyes turned skywards."
― Leonardo da Vinci
User avatar
PJL
Fife Thousand feet
Fife Thousand feet
 
Posts: 5731
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:04 pm
Location: Macadamia Valley

Re: Samora Machel Crash Documentary on SABC 3 at 21:30 Tonight

Postby Fat Frank » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:06 am

Although the entire truth about the Civil Cooperation Bureau may never be known, South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission(TRC) concluded that:[80]

"...the CCB was a creation of the SADF and an integral part of South Africa’s counter-insurgency system which, in the course of its operations, perpetrated gross violations of human rights, including killings, against both South African and non-South African citizens. The Commission finds that the activities of the CCB constituted a systematic pattern of abuse which entailed deliberate planning on the part of the leadership of the CCB and the SADF. The Commission finds these institutions and their members accountable for the aforesaid gross violations of human rights."

As per the policy of the TRC, its findings were set out, but no action was taken.


See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Cooperation_Bureau.

They were a part of Mil Int but it all went pear shaped. In the end there was a lot of criminal activity, drug dealing and diamonds. Bunch of renegades. Fredie Barnard is currently in jail for the murder of Webster (dont ask me who Webster was, look it up).

Where they would find a beacon, know how to tune it, at the right time, at the right place, heaven only knows.

There is also a huge confusion around "MA" Mala Mala and "MA" Maputo. PILOT ERROR. Ask the Russians.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery"
Napoleon Bonaparte

"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed..."
- Genesis 9:6

When you are short of everything but the enemy....you are in combat..!
User avatar
Fat Frank
Too Tousand
Too Tousand
 
Posts: 2822
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:06 am
Location: Over here and over there

Re: Samora Machel Crash Documentary on SABC 3 at 21:30 Tonight

Postby Snoopy » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:15 am

Guess the owl of Minerva got lost in this cacophony then...no wonder I fell asleep during this program....boring stuff.

Maybe he'll also get a publisher and write a book like so many other wannabees did ...."The long road to nowhere" :idea:
Snoopy
10000 and still climbing
10000 and still climbing
 
Posts: 13891
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:54 am
Location: World

Re: Samora Machel Crash Documentary on SABC 3 at 21:30 Tonight

Postby Philip Foglar » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:46 am

Hi guys,

Sorry, haven't had change to say hi - joined just other day.

So I gather this was as I expected, another propaganda based documentary on SABC - that's why I didn't bother watching it. I don't actually know all that much about this incident, but I get the impression that it was a straight forward plane crash (pilot error) that was turned into a politically motivated apartheid thing. Will leave it at that since as I said, don't really know too much about this crash...

Philip.
Philip Foglar
 

Re: Samora Machel Crash Documentary on SABC 3 at 21:30 Tonight

Postby opsmike » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:52 am

Back in the 90's during the accident investigation course we used this accident as a practical exercise, and we came to the same conclusion as the board. These CCB guys were quite a clever bunch, they were well versed in the aviation industry :lol: they intercepted the flight plan, new the exact routing, got all the equipment out into the bush, switched it on at the right time and cut Maputo's power. :lol: :lol: :lol: a laugh a minute #-o #-o =D> =D>
Airports are where it happens
User avatar
opsmike
Frequent AvComer
 
Posts: 907
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:21 pm
Location: Lanseria

Re: Samora Machel Crash Documentary on SABC 3 at 21:30 Tonight

Postby soloflyer2002 » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:54 am

Don't know if anyone else picked on this bit that still puzzles me
In the beginning of the show, they talk about an NDB - even the CVR playback mentions the pilot saying something about ther being no NDB
Next minute, pictures of a PVOR (Portable VOR?) is shown and discussed.
So, was it an NDB or VOR? :roll:
Two wrongs don't make a right, but two Wrights made an aeroplane
User avatar
soloflyer2002
Power off stall
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:18 am
Location: Cape Town

Re: Samora Machel Crash Documentary on SABC 3 at 21:30 Tonight

Postby pongopilot » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:57 am

Got the following article via another source.

Translation of an artice that appeared in the newspaper Zambeze published in Maputo, 28 August 2008 page 2.
THE ACCIDENT AT MBUZINI

Sérgio Vieira Ordered Mozambique Airline Pilots to Remain Silent
by Luís Brito Dias
I read with great interest the statements of Mr Sérgio Vieira with respect to the accident at Mbuzini (O Pais, 15 August 2008), a subject of extraordinary interest to me as I was employed as a pilot for DETA/LAM (Mozambique Airlines) for 17 years. At the moment I am employed as a pilot in the Far East as a Captain flying Boeing 747-400 type aircraft. It is obvious that Mr Sérgio Vieira is lying shamelessly for, at the time of the accident, he was the Minister of Security and therefore responsible for what happened. Samora died an obscure death for which he was also responsible as he placed his life in the hands of pilots that turned out to be negligent and careless.
All the pilots that flew for Mozambique Airlines at the time know perfectly well that the accident at Mbuzini was due to negligence and carelessness on the part of the flying crew. Besides, after the accident, Mr Sergio Vieira sent a message to all the Mozambique Airlines (LAM) pilots, as a very clear threat, to “remain silent and not to open their mouth.” That was why no LAM Captain was appointed to participate in the Commission of Enquiry. The sole pilot was a LAM co-pilot, who had been in the Air Force and was a member of Frelimo and therefore “easily controllable”. This co-pilot began to see the disgusting nature of the Commission of Enquiry and arranged to be removed quickly as his conscience would not allow him to participate in the corruption of the truth.
The Soviet pilots, besides having little experience, flew very seldom. The pilot’s licences that were presented to the enquiry were false. They were issued posthumously.
At the time I was co-pipot of a DC-10 of the Mozambique Airlines. During a flight from Lisbon to Maputo the Captain and I demonstrated to Mariano Matsinhe and another Frelimo Minister that was on board, what had really happened. They were our guests in the cockpit. We even made the turn or the change from the initial course as well as the incorrect manipulation of the navigation instruments’ selectors to show them what had happened on the night of the Mbuzini accident.
Besides not having taken sufficient reserve fuel what happened was that, out of the 5 crew members in the cockpit, 3 were occupied in dividing up and drinking the leftover alcoholic beverages until 6 minutes before the final impact. Only the co-pilot and the navigator were “taking care” of the flight. All this was recorded on the CVR (Cockpit Voice Recorder).
The Captain only realised that they were lost 3 minutes before the final impact. The confusion was so great that they paid no attention to the audio alarm (GPWS or Ground Proximity Warning Signal) that the aircaft was about to hit the ground without being in the configuration for landing. They broke many basic “golden rules” of flying, but the most critical was that, having arrived at the “safe altitude” published for Maputo as 3000 feet, they continued to descend without having visual contact with the ground or, alternatively, having the correct electronic indications of the Maputo navigation equipment. In this case the ILS (Instrument Landing System) or the VOR (VHF Omni-directional Range beacon) of Maputo. What ensued was that, instead of selecting the ILS for Maputo (110.3), they mistakenly selected the VOR of Matsapa (112.3) and they changed course for the Radial 045 of Matsapa instead of being on Radial 045 of the VOR of Maputo. The navigator of the Tupolev made the mistake, for, in the Russian system, the navigators select the radio guidance systems and not the pilots. He had already selected the VOR for Maputo (112.7), but in changing the frequency for the ILS of Maputo (110.3), which is a radio guidance system for approaching the runway and not a route navigation beacon, he committed the fatal error.
The knobs for selecting decimal points are independent of the knobs for selecting numbers in hundreds. In other words, firstly he had to change from 112 to 110 and after that from 0.7 to 0.3 with a separate and independent knob. What happened was that he left the 112 and only changed the 0.7 to 0.3, which happened to coincide with the frequency of the VOR of Matsapa. It was this incorrect manipulation of the systems that led the crew to make a course change. As they were “distracted” in the cockpit no one verified the change of frequency. One of the basic rules is that, whenever something is changed in the cockpit, this action has to be verified and accepted by the other pilot. None of this was done.
These were the immediate causes of the accident, but there were other factors that also contibuted, such as crew fatigue, the lack of reserve fuel, the lengthy inactivity of the crew, a lack of verification of the flight simulator flight training, etc. An aviation accident never occurs in isolation. It is always the accumulation of events that ends in tragedy. I do not want to be arrogant, but my experience of 31 years in aviation as well as participation in aeronautical accident investigations gives me the liberty to speak on these matters.
After so many years of the ANC being in power in South Africa and despite the many investigations on the part of the new South African authorities, whether at the level of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission or by the police mandated by President Thabo Mbeki more than two years ago, no vestige of an attempt by the South African authorities of the former regime to interfere in this flight has been found. The conspiracy theories therefore are circulated by untruthful so-called internal experts, which is very suspicious and without content. The facts speak for themselves ........
Pongopilot
pongopilot
Preflighting
 
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:01 pm
Location: Here , There , Everywhere

PreviousNext


Return to General Aviation Chatter

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Air Bear, Arno, Craig76, davelo, Jon, opsmike, petboy, Raeflyer, Scotsman and 20 guests