Cessna 208B missing in Kenya - RIP (6 June 2018)

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Re: Cessna 208B missing in Kenya - RIP

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:20 pm

jimdavis wrote:
There is nothing going on that forces a pilot to chuck normal safety procedures out of the window. LCC members fly there safely every day.

What appears to be happening here is PPP - PEOPLE PLEASING PRESSURES. Pease the pax, please my boss, please the company. It happens all over the world and pilots who fall into the trap die all over the world.

It is nothing to do with flying in Africa.
It has everything to do with flying in Africa I am afraid. There are very few places that present the same challenges as Africa does. Navaid density in the USA for example is around 800 times greater than in Africa.
Its not only about the topography. Its about a combination of the topography, the climate and resources available for commercial and general flight operations. I guess South America comes close. I am not arguing with the concept of MSA's, procedures etc. It is patently obvious why these things exist in aviation. I am not even arguing with the PPP problem, because that clearly is an issue as well. But the sad fact of the matter is that commercial flight ops will not happen in these countries, or anywhere else for that matter, if we strictly adhere to LCC maxims and even the most obvious safety standards.

In a Utopian environment, pilots will tell their bosses that they cannot fly because the weather is bad, passengers will happily accept being stranded for 4 days, charter companies will gladly refund the cost of air tickets, pilots will fly at MSA, nobody will take chances and we will have a zero accident rate. But Utopia does not exist and sometimes, calculated risks go pear shaped.
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Re: Cessna 208B missing in Kenya - RIP (6 June 2018)

Unread post by jimdavis » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:28 pm

Sure thing AF - if you are saying that one must recognise and adapt to the dangers of flying in a different environment - I agree with you fully. In the same way that folks adapt to flying the lakes in Canada.

But is there any compulsion to lower one's safety standards because of this? I really don't think there is.

Just a difference of opinion - I guess.

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Re: Cessna 208B missing in Kenya - RIP (6 June 2018)

Unread post by Jel » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:40 pm

jimdavis wrote:Sure thing AF - if you are saying that one must recognise and adapt to the dangers of flying in a different environment - I agree with you fully. In the same way that folks adapt to flying the lakes in Canada.

But is there any compulsion to lower one's safety standards because of this? I really don't think there is.

Just a difference of opinion - I guess.

jim
compulsion
1. the action or state of forcing or being forced to do something; constraint.
2. an irresistible urge to behave in a certain way.

There is no question there is... being careful not to bring race into it... culturally it is often harder and there is less tolerance of perceived "insubordination" in Africa... African operators (and I am not saying this is the case here), often will not tolerate it nor is it "acceptable"... its one reason why I resist flying in Africa with most operators. Been on a flight from Zanzibar to Dar and the pilot fell asleep (short hop)... also didn't do any checks on the aircraft before we took off, just got in and flew...
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Re: Cessna 208B missing in Kenya - RIP (6 June 2018)

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:23 pm

jimdavis wrote:Sure thing AF - if you are saying that one must recognise and adapt to the dangers of flying in a different environment - I agree with you fully. In the same way that folks adapt to flying the lakes in Canada.

But is there any compulsion to lower one's safety standards because of this? I really don't think there is.

jim

This is all that I was trying to say. You just said it a bit more succinctly.

PS: Just pulled out an old logbook as I could not remember the details of one of the most horrendous flights I did in a Twotter several years ago. It was a flight from Nyeri - Karagita - Nakuru, this after I took a two month sabatical from the mundane task of airline flying to rejuvenate some excitement in bush flying. Run this by your new fandangled flight planning software packages and see how many navaids you can identify en route (and what the GRID MORA is.) I honestly cannot remember if there were any but all I can remember is that we nearly died that day.
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Re: Cessna 208B missing in Kenya - RIP

Unread post by HJK 414 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:20 pm

jimdavis wrote:..............

It is nothing to do with flying in Africa.

And I suspect you are stone wrong about HJK's experience. He is no lightweight, and tends to be modest about his aviation history! 8)

jim

Thx Jim,

No need really - He is entitled to his opinion ....... :wink:
FWIW - I have some experience in some pretty demanding terrain.

Late 70's / No GPS / No ATC most of the time .....and maps / terrain indications that were as unreliable as my bladder nowadays ....
And certainly no tech backup (if it broke - you fixed it - or walked)....
Different era - different mindset ....




This was my initial stomping ground ( close to 4 years / +/- 2 K hours ) where I learnt that safety is not negotiable - ever !
Perhaps not "good enough experience" for some - but I found it quite a learning curve - especially back then ....
Sort of made me feel I had some "experience" in how not to kill yourself, and drawing a line in the sand...... :!:


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Re: Cessna 208B missing in Kenya - RIP

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:10 am

HJK 414 wrote:
No need really - He is entitled to his opinion ....... :wink:
FWIW - I have some experience in some pretty demanding terrain.

This was my initial stomping ground ( close to 4 years / +/- 2 K hours ) where I learnt that safety is not negotiable - ever !
Perhaps not "good enough experience" for some - but I found it quite a learning curve - especially back then ....
Sort of made me feel I had some "experience" in how not to kill yourself, and drawing a line in the sand...... :!:


JK
As discussed, lets make it a learning process. I only watched the first 5 minutes of the video and it portrays the exact situation I was trying to describe and probably very similar to what the pilots of the doomed C 208 experienced.

I noted the following in the video :

1. Pilot clearly below MSA pretty much most of the time.
2. No real communication with ATC.
3. Flew by visual reference only, ie no apparent use of any navigational systems.
4. Flew the same class of aircraft as a C208 except I don't think the C 208 was kitted out with TCAS and TAWS.

Now, can someone advise how such operation can be conducted in any other way. As I see it, pretty much every single LCC rule was kicked out the window, the pilot most certainly lowered every known safety standard, yet these pilots have achieved almost hero status.
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Re: Cessna 208B missing in Kenya - RIP

Unread post by HJK 414 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:07 am

Airwayfreak wrote:..........
As discussed, lets make it a learning process. I only watched the first 5 minutes of the video and it portrays the exact situation I was trying to describe and probably very similar to what the pilots of the doomed C 208 experienced.

I noted the following in the video :

1. Pilot clearly below MSA pretty much most of the time.
2. No real communication with ATC.
3. Flew by visual reference only, ie no apparent use of any navigational systems.
4. Flew the same class of aircraft as a C208 except I don't think the C 208 was kitted out with TCAS and TAWS.

Now, can someone advise how such operation can be conducted in any other way. As I see it, pretty much every single LCC rule was kicked out the window, the pilot most certainly lowered every known safety standard, yet these pilots have achieved almost hero status.
Airwayfreak ......

To start with the last comment - we were never trying to be heroes ....... [-(
We flew in difficult circumstances - and had to learn - without Navaids and or ATC - in VFR !! - the hard way that your safety is not negotiable - and that you are on your own / that your decision is final and that people (pax) are relying on your judgement and common sense.

Look at the video from 5.00 to 7.20 or so - The flight into Hitadipa.
He has to commit - but if that valley was fogged in - or low cloud prevented the approach - he would not have gone in - despite all the technology on board. No matter what.

In comparison - we did it with maps on our knees - a stopwatch and a compass ...... (in Piston aircraft)

My only comment on the 208 crash in Kenya was that the Pilots put themselves there ..... it is their choice.
If you are unsure - climb out .... MSA 13.000 ft - you can get away with that for 30 minutes and create choices - (FAR is 12.5 / more than 30 minutes ? / supplemental iirc), but flying into a mountain - as far as I am viewing it - Pilot error .....

There is a fine line between opinion and judgement - and it is my opinion, nothing else.
I will never judge those pilots - I was not there ........ and did not have to make the decisions they made.
All I stated is that regardless of MSA / Navaids / Screaming passengers - at the end of the day - the PIC makes the call.

And my "learning curve" back then served me well.

JK
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Re: Cessna 208B missing in Kenya - RIP (6 June 2018)

Unread post by Mouser » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:08 am

Very interesting comments about the risks of flying in that area between lack of pressurisation and high mountains. Properly scary.

Then add, shall I say uncertain, ATC. A friend who flies bigger planes for a Middle Eastern airline tells me he advises keeping a sharp lookout (of all systems - including the Mark One eyeball) when over flying this neck of the woods. Lots of crossing flights and then ATC not as trustworthy as some.
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Re: Cessna 208B missing in Kenya - RIP

Unread post by ou toppie » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:08 pm

Airwayfreak wrote:
HJK 414 wrote:
No need really - He is entitled to his opinion ....... :wink:
FWIW - I have some experience in some pretty demanding terrain.

This was my initial stomping ground ( close to 4 years / +/- 2 K hours ) where I learnt that safety is not negotiable - ever !
Perhaps not "good enough experience" for some - but I found it quite a learning curve - especially back then ....
Sort of made me feel I had some "experience" in how not to kill yourself, and drawing a line in the sand...... :!:


JK
I noted the following in the video :

1. Pilot clearly below MSA pretty much most of the time.
2. No real communication with ATC.
3. Flew by visual reference only, ie no apparent use of any navigational systems.

Now, can someone advise how such operation can be conducted in any other way. As I see it, pretty much every single LCC rule was kicked out the window, the pilot most certainly lowered every known safety standard, yet these pilots have achieved almost hero status.
Hi JK,
Concur with every word. I was there mid to the end of the 70s in Kalimantan, Sulawesi and Java visiting logging camps, mines and oil rig installations using everything from Apaches, Islanders/Trilanders,Twotters even the Goose. Plus the S58, 206, Alouette 11s and 111s and the UH1. BUT only in the R/H seat ( or L/H in the helicopters). Even had a couple of wheelbarrow landings on the F28s. Every trip out was an adventure in itself. The flightmaps for Sulawesi had a large area in the central highlands clearly marked NOT FULLY SURVEYED.
I loved that R/H (or L/H) seat and what a learning curve regarding bush flying. Often wished I had taken up flying instead of Mech Eng.
Wouldn't have missed it for the world and it was a great country to live in.
Airwayfreak-- your comments 1,2 and 3 are a good reflection on what was happening in the video but put that into context with what JK ( and the pilots who flew me around ) had to contend with using the steam gauges of the 70s.

Sorry for the rant but, unless you've been beyond the point of no return, in a 206, flying over forest with 100feet high trees, looking for a logging camp which has your next refuelling stop, you havnt lived.
OT
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Re: Cessna 208B missing in Kenya - RIP (6 June 2018)

Unread post by happyskipper » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:17 am

Airwayfreak, I really don't understand the slagging of Jim's LCC at every turn here....... 2 Qualified and "competent" pilots flew a C208 full of pax into a mountain in an area known for it's challenging conditions...

No matter how I try to view this accident, I keep coming back to the fact that, had they been LCC members, they, and their pax may still be alive today... How is this a BAD thing?

No, I have not operated in Kenya, personally, as a pilot - but I have been an interested and educated observer throughout Africa, including Kenya, in everything from Daks and Hercs to AN32s, and assorted PC's - but, here I am, alive and kicking...... Why?
Because the pilots I flew with, including my father, were not willing to risk killing themselves, and their pax, to make other people rich. They all got the job done - eventually, and made the company some dosh...... And kept the pax and 'plane in serviceable condition - How much money do you think this Caravan prang has made it's owners? Was it worth the risk?

You decide - and then tell me if it's wrong to be a LCC member.... :?:
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Re: Cessna 208B missing in Kenya - RIP

Unread post by HJK 414 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:40 am

ou toppie wrote:..........

Hi JK,
Concur with every word. I was there mid to the end of the 70s in Kalimantan, Sulawesi and Java visiting logging camps, mines and oil rig installations using everything from Apaches, Islanders/Trilanders,Twotters even the Goose. Plus the S58, 206, Alouette 11s and 111s and the UH1. BUT only in the R/H seat ( or L/H in the helicopters). Even had a couple of wheelbarrow landings on the F28s. Every trip out was an adventure in itself. The flightmaps for Sulawesi had a large area in the central highlands clearly marked NOT FULLY SURVEYED.
I loved that R/H (or L/H) seat and what a learning curve regarding bush flying. Often wished I had taken up flying instead of Mech Eng.
Wouldn't have missed it for the world and it was a great country to live in.
Airwayfreak-- your comments 1,2 and 3 are a good reflection on what was happening in the video but put that into context with what JK ( and the pilots who flew me around ) had to contend with using the steam gauges of the 70s.

Sorry for the rant but, unless you've been beyond the point of no return, in a 206, flying over forest with 100feet high trees, looking for a logging camp which has your next refuelling stop, you havnt lived.
OT

Buenos días señor
¿Cómo estás.

The world could not be that small could it.?
I was flying a C185E "Carryall" and an Islander in the initial years. ( a C402 in the last year (1979) - and would wander to Kalimantan)
If you visited the operations of BCL or the Gold mining in Enga or Lihir / or the initial exploration sites of Freeport / you have quite a high chance of having flown with me.

We were there at the behest of the Dutch government (Or so we were told - hence my old man "donating" me to gain "experience" / and liberating himself from me at Rand ...... :wink: ....) and a Evangelical society (which was probably a "cover" to keep track of what was happening in Papua / and to the Christians after the annexation by the Indonesians.) We flew material - supplies into the craziest strips to support the locals ....

It was an exiting time - also a tad tricky.
We were seen as the "Dutch" and albeit that a large part of the population opposed the annexation by the Indonesians - we had to deal with those that saw us as "remnants" of the "colonial oppression".

You certainly had to keep your wits about you with the flying though .... I once had 2 pax threatening each other with knives in the back of the 185 .........That sort of thing could really go haywire in seconds and the buggers were all carrying knives - spears and some small bows with arrows - and blowpipes .... They would also "expropriate" anything shiny..........

What it did teach you was flying - and making decisions - with not much more than map / watch and compass and very sparse Navaids.
You also learnt that getting into trouble was "easy to do" / yet you made sure you at least had thought about it / and had an "out" ....... be that climbing out / flying race track patterns in situ - or finding water to descend over - but you never went anywhere without preparation and having thought about your "potential options".

Back on topic - (before the Green Guy's protest)

The relevance with the crash in Kenya is that Airwayfreak and myself agree on one thing.

We both have some issues with the current Pilot groups (and their "new" way of thinking about flying and relying on technology.)
I am of the opinion that too many young pilots have forgotten how to fly / and maintain situational awareness - and that their reliance on technology and the information they receive from such is causing a breakdown in preparation / and simple basic checks that go with flying in difficult terrain or weather - especially VFR.

Too much technology is being allowed in basic flying training and these kids no longer have to "think" and make judgement calls that could kill them ......and others .....
In the past - we learnt the hard way - and then grew into technology (jets) - but had the basics under our belts - that is - in my opinion - no longer the case .........

I however often refrain from commenting on flying issues - there is a new generation and they have to find their way - and perhaps our "antiquated" methods are just that. So - I hope they stay safe - and try not to "interfere" too much.
I do get a tad irked when comments about Jim and his LCC are made ...... we flew and happened to survive in conditions that probably would be a bridge too far for a lot of the current "experts", and luck had very little to do with it.

JK
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Re: Cessna 208B missing in Kenya - RIP (6 June 2018)

Unread post by HJK 414 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:24 pm

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Re: Cessna 208B missing in Kenya - RIP (6 June 2018)

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:32 pm

happyskipper wrote:Airwayfreak, I really don't understand the slagging of Jim's LCC at every turn here....... 2 Qualified and "competent" pilots flew a C208 full of pax into a mountain in an area known for it's challenging conditions...

:
As I see it, nobody has "slagged off Jim's LCC". I have simply said that Jim's LCC's maxims do not apply to bush flying. Had I said Jim's stupid, pathetic, irrelevant maxims do not apply to bush flying, that would be slagging it off.

I leave you with a question. How would you have done it differently had you been one of the two competent pilots? And don't tell me you would not have flown it because then Jim's LCC maxims apply.
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Re: Cessna 208B missing in Kenya - RIP

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:47 pm

ou toppie wrote: Airwayfreak-- your comments 1,2 and 3 are a good reflection on what was happening in the video but put that into context with what JK ( and the pilots who flew me around ) had to contend with using the steam gauges of the 70s.
So flying with steam gauges in the 1970's is safer than flying improvised GPS approaches today? Are you going o tell me that nobody crashed and burned in the 1970's because they were flying with steam gauges, maps and a stop watch.

My point has always been that bush flying is inherently dangerous and that the pilots that died in the C 208 were doing nothing different to what happened in the 1970's nor what the video taken in Indonesia presented. HJK commented that the pilot in the video would not have gone into the valley had it been clagged in. Really???? I somehow doubt that. An improvised GPS approach is far safer than diving into the unknown no matter how many maps, compasses and stop watches you have on board.

Today's pilots do have more technology available to them and I agree that this sometimes becomes the over riding factor, but to say that these C 208 pilots behaved in anyway that is different from what has happened in bush flying over the past decades is simply not true.
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Re: Cessna 208B missing in Kenya - RIP (6 June 2018)

Unread post by jimdavis » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:06 pm

Sorry AF, but this discussion has been going nowhere for quite a while.

Folks have different points of view, and they are not going to change. :D

jim
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