AP (APPROVED PERSON) by the CAA

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Volo
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AP (APPROVED PERSON) by the CAA

Unread post by Volo » Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:40 pm

I am an AP - Approved person for the inspection of NTCA aircraft . I have held this title for the past 38 years . The SSSA (Soaring society ) were delegated by the CAA to administer and issue said certificates up until circa 2010 . The administrative authority was ceded to RAASA designated by the CAA to issue and administer the AP scheme which was ostensibly a scheme managed by the Aeroclub but in reality that authority rested with RAASA.
RAASA was stripped of its designation in 2020 and the oversight of the AP scheme reverted to the CAA.
Up until the creation of RAASA we as APs were never required by the CAA to renew or validate our AP certificates , however with advent of RAASA the renewal was required as per the law in Part 66, however the requirement to renew 30 days before expiry was never enforced or applied and the certificates were renewed on proof of payment for the re-issue .

Here is the rub - On my first application to CAA for renewal my application was declined and I was asked to rewrite exams to this end .

What the CAA has done is applied the regulations to the letter of the law that in all my 38 years of exercising my qualification as an Inspector was never applied .
This is not only unreasonable but clearly designed to frustrate and eliminate servants of the aviation community . There are so many other qualifications that do not have a time constraint on the application for renewal that completely invalidates the certificate .
I have made representations to the CAA for the renewal of my certificate without their ridiculous requirements , however if they are not of a mind to abandon the application of laws that they only chose to use when it suits them then I shall probably join the ranks of the other disenfranchised inspectors which I believe to be something like at least 100 or so .

Creeping bureaucracy at its worst .
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Re: AP (APPROVED PERSON) by the CAA

Unread post by rvanzyl » Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:52 pm

I am extremely saddened by the turn of events.

I was responsible for the introduction of the AP concept during my watch at the old DCA/CD:CAA.

Regretfully the regulators of today have no passion or understanding of the aspects involving homebuilt or recreational aviation.

There is a need to challenge irrational regulations and have them changed.

Where is the Aero Club as a representative body?

There is also the need for other representative bodies such as EAA, AOPA, CAASA to take a stand against irrational regulations.

There should always be a grandfather clause.

I wish you all success in this fight.

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Re: AP (APPROVED PERSON) by the CAA

Unread post by AEH » Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:03 pm

The Aero Club of SA has too had its powers ursurped, to the extent that it is powerless.

RAASA was intended to be a body paid for by CAA to deal with all the issues that they did not truly understand. When the redrafting of the ANRs occurred c 2011, the intentions behind the legislation were not envisaged for todays environment and contained serious ommissions which we are all starting to see now.

The CAA officials have no option but to apply the regulations. It is therefore the regulations that must change in particular RAASAs drafting of the CATS.
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Re: AP (APPROVED PERSON) by the CAA

Unread post by alpha-mike-tango » Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:35 pm

Although I at times miss it, I am somewhat glad I let my AP and AME lapse some years ago ....... everchanging rules and regs (which never made things any easier or more efficient) just became too much to deal with.
Just wasn't worth it in the end. :cry:
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Re: AP (APPROVED PERSON) by the CAA

Unread post by mak » Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:34 pm

Volo wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:40 pm
I am an AP - Approved person for the inspection of NTCA aircraft . I have held this title for the past 38 years . The SSSA (Soaring society ) were delegated by the CAA to administer and issue said certificates up until circa 2010 . The administrative authority was ceded to RAASA designated by the CAA to issue and administer the AP scheme which was ostensibly a scheme managed by the Aeroclub but in reality that authority rested with RAASA.
RAASA was stripped of its designation in 2020 and the oversight of the AP scheme reverted to the CAA.
Up until the creation of RAASA we as APs were never required by the CAA to renew or validate our AP certificates , however with advent of RAASA the renewal was required as per the law in Part 66, however the requirement to renew 30 days before expiry was never enforced or applied and the certificates were renewed on proof of payment for the re-issue .

Here is the rub - On my first application to CAA for renewal my application was declined and I was asked to rewrite exams to this end .

What the CAA has done is applied the regulations to the letter of the law that in all my 38 years of exercising my qualification as an Inspector was never applied .
This is not only unreasonable but clearly designed to frustrate and eliminate servants of the aviation community . There are so many other qualifications that do not have a time constraint on the application for renewal that completely invalidates the certificate .
I have made representations to the CAA for the renewal of my certificate without their ridiculous requirements , however if they are not of a mind to abandon the application of laws that they only chose to use when it suits them then I shall probably join the ranks of the other disenfranchised inspectors which I believe to be something like at least 100 or so .

Creeping bureaucracy at its worst .
I believe/heard that everybody on the AP panel has an interest in an AMO. Not in their best interest to get more AP's out there. If true, not a healthy situation.
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Re: AP (APPROVED PERSON) by the CAA

Unread post by Jean Crous » Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:03 pm

Not true , I personally know one or two of the panel members, and although they may not discuss what goes on there, I can say this : They really want to introduce more AP`s to the industry. They do have their challenges though.
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Re: AP (APPROVED PERSON) by the CAA

Unread post by Orthin Opter » Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:57 pm

mak wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:34 pm
I believe/heard that everybody on the AP panel has an interest in an AMO. Not in their best interest to get more AP's out there. If true, not a healthy situation.
Not everybody... Some, like Volo actually have supplied a service for years. Most at no cost.
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Re: AP (APPROVED PERSON) by the CAA

Unread post by Volo » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:32 pm

Just a little update on this sorry story .
After a discussion with a AP panel member and various email exchanges with the chairlady of the AP panel it is clear that after having invoked a clause that the CAA or their designated and delegated authorities amongst them RAASA have not ever used it seems they have cancelled my AP status because the renewal application was late.

They have invalidated my AP certificate because the application was late and this is contained in the regulations in Part 66 . As it happens I am told that the law was revised to remove this offending clause but has not been promulgated as yet so my qualifications are not recognized and I would have to rewrite some new exams that someone dreamt up in the interim .

I refuse point blank to do this and with that they told me that they will not reinstate my certificate . They even offered to pay me back my application fee which I have not seen needless to say .

The panel gave me a lecture that I should not be so confrontational and accept their dictates on the matter and were most offended when I referred to their regulations as "tea - time "rules because somebody on their panel made up a rule that all that would be necessary would be to rewrite airlaw only because clearly I needed to do that because I did not know the law because had I known it I would not have been late in my renewal application.

This tea time rule has never been promulgated and is not in writing anywhere - I give up !!!!! they just don't get it, while they erode GAs knowledge base by taking APs out of the system.
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Re: AP (APPROVED PERSON) by the CAA

Unread post by HJK 414 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:19 pm

Volo wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:32 pm

............ I give up !!!!! they just don't get it, while they erode GAs knowledge base by taking APs out of the system.

Dave,

Has anyone thanked you for 38 years of service ?
Has anyone asked how much knowledge and insight you bring to the table ?

Or are they too busy with manifesting their own importance ?? ..... :smt045

The "new" powers that be would rather see someone "connected" and "important" on the playing field, and who cares about knowledge or insight ...??

It is hard for these new "important people" to manifest oneself when there are too many people around that do know what they are talking about ......
Once you manage to get rid of those pesky guy's that know so much ....... you are suddenly quite important and have a lot of insight ...... #-o

Leave them to it - it will self destruct ...... there is not enough knowledge and insight left to avoid it ....... [-(

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Re: AP (APPROVED PERSON) by the CAA

Unread post by spokes » Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:57 am

The only solution for the regulatory mess is to create an internationaly endorsed company. Government should have no authority over it as it had with RAASA.
Not ZU and not ZS registrations but a new registration.
Completely autonomous.

If the legal heads can come up with a solution. If not we are going to end up not flying or flying illegally. Unfortunately it is very obvious and clear that no solution is envisaged and illegal flying is rocketting.
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Re: AP (APPROVED PERSON) by the CAA

Unread post by rainier » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:14 am

I am (was ?) an AP but not active anymore.
When I became an AP it was to serve the experimental aviation community on a club bases. I have some knowledge and experience that is of some value. I never charged a cent for my services. That was the spirit the AP scheme was intended for.
But soon enough things changed and it became gradually more onerous on the AP - things became stricter, the AP had to pay dues and renew his ratings etc and there were liability issues. Red tape slowly caused many AP's to leave the game - and yes, some of them perhaps should never have been in the first place - if you sign somebodies aircraft out you better know what you are doing. You are playing with lives. But the bulk of the AP's were good guys (and the odd gal, not to ignore that). They did keep things in check quite nicely.
I was one of them that bailed - I had no interest in becoming a commercial AP. That was never the idea. Now CAA has taken over the scheme and it has become a bureaucratic paper pushing exercise all in the name of safety of course. It's going to take the AP a week to perform the required work now stipulated on the thickish paper stack. This does not happen of course. You simply tick the boxes and sign.
Every AP I have spoken to has the same opinion as to what is going on. But nobody speaks up. Everybody is too scared of being victimized. Not a good place to be.

When I still signed out aircraft, it was ONE sheet of paper I had to fill in and the ATF was issued IMMEDIATELY by the CAA in those days. It was simple and effective. I see NO tangible benefit of the system as it is in place now. Paper, no matter how high the stack, does not provide safety - except keeping aircraft grounded and pilots to become ex-pilots because they can't take the nonsense anymore. That's the way this cookie is crumbling.
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Re: AP (APPROVED PERSON) by the CAA

Unread post by Volo » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:22 am

spokes wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:57 am
The only solution for the regulatory mess is to create an internationaly endorsed company. Government should have no authority over it as it had with RAASA.
Not ZU and not ZS registrations but a new registration.
Completely autonomous.

If the legal heads can come up with a solution. If not we are going to end up not flying or flying illegally. Unfortunately it is very obvious and clear that no solution is envisaged and illegal flying is rocketting.
..............................
Your proposal is never going to happen because the law will never allow it . The state cannot relinquish its authority and control over its own airspace , however what they can do in terms of the existing law under Part 149 is re-designate a body like RAASA or even delegate authority like they did for the Soaring society (SSSA) for many years to control and administer aviation sporting bodies .

As much as I was against the creation of RAASA because they remained controlled by SACAA but for a while their management was comprised of recreation and sporting participants but although their designation included the creation of aviation regulations this some how did not manifest itself as a benefit to rec aviation and then-" POOF "they were gone with no explanation from anyone least of all from SACAA.

What I would like to see is delegation of administration to the individual sporting bodies like in Britain and the European union and believe it or not even Australia . They have done it here before and eliminated it for no reason they could ever point to . What are the authorities so afraid of ? Their only real concern should be enough regulation to prevent sport aviation from posing a danger to commercial air traffic and anyone on the ground .

Let sport aviation do what they do best -control their own sports within a properly designed set of regulations peculiar to their own discipline .
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Re: AP (APPROVED PERSON) by the CAA

Unread post by Johan Swakopmund » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:35 am

WE have discussed this same issues .
I for one will not be surprised if some gatkruip AMO's is also sitting behind this.
GA ( talking certified aircraft ) is getting much less than 10,15 years ago and then the covid closed everything down.

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Re: AP (APPROVED PERSON) by the CAA

Unread post by Chalkie » Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:18 am

Volo wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:40 pm
Up until the creation of RAASA we as APs were never required by the CAA to renew or validate our AP certificates , however with advent of RAASA the renewal was required as per the law in Part 66, however the requirement to renew 30 days before expiry was never enforced or applied and the certificates were renewed on proof of payment for the re-issue .

...

Creeping bureaucracy at its worst .
Hi Dave, thanks for the heads up. Here in Jbay, I am one of the very few AP's and am approaching the 30 day renewal period.

I will submit my application and see what happens... Watch this space...
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Re: AP (APPROVED PERSON) by the CAA

Unread post by Fred Bebington » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:52 pm

Hi Dave, totally agree with you. I don’t have as many years experience as Dave but became an AP after being guided and “tested” by a well qualified AP by name of Brian Loader.
This was when the Aero Club ran the scheme.
I gave up when RAASA took over and I had to pay for the “privilege” of inspecting gliders without any compensation. Did it because I enjoyed it.

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