Glidings Best kept Secret

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Re: Glidings Best kept Secret

Unread post by Groenie » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:30 pm

I would absolutely love to get involved with gliding. If anybody can give an estimate of the costs involved when starting from scratch it would be greatly appreciated? I am in Bellville, so Worchester is probably the place to be, unless there is somewhere else I don’t know of. :D
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Re: Glidings Best kept Secret

Unread post by 117 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:41 pm

[quote="ctwoo"]

Dear Volvo,

I am extremely keen to experience flying in a glider and to explore the possibilities of getting a GPL.

I am based in Cape Town and as far as I know the closest gliding club is Cape Gliding Club in Worcester?
Are there any Avcommers from the club? I would love to arrange to visit the club before the University holidays are over :D

Kind regards
James[/quote}

You are welcome to contact me for Cape based gliding interest at CGC.

We have the Cape Regionals starting this weekend, so you are more than welcome to come along and see how/what competitions are all about as well as finding out more about gliding in general at CGC

117
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Re: Glidings Best kept Secret

Unread post by johanp » Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:00 pm

Groenie wrote:I would absolutely love to get involved with gliding. If anybody can give an estimate of the costs involved when starting from scratch it would be greatly appreciated? I am in Bellville, so Worchester is probably the place to be, unless there is somewhere else I don’t know of. :D
I would also be very interested to see such an estimate. If you're in Bellville, CGC (Worcester) is the closest, and we can organize a rideshare to save on fuel (and hopefully make the trip less boring)... 3.0 hours in the car for every day's flying, sheesh! :shock:

I went for an intro flight this past weekend - it was fantastic! (thanks to smittiefish, Sarel and the other kind folks of CGC). Although I'll never ever ever again have a glass of wine the day before flying though. Eight hours bottle to throttle my goodness... should be 48 hours per drink...! We spent, what, 30 minutes in the air (I don't think we ever got higher than 4000 ft) and I had a roaring hangover for the rest of the day. ONE glass of wine! And I weigh nearly a 100 kilo's! Aikona...

Anyway, I really liked what I saw there. As a zero-hour-wannabe-someday-PPL-in-training, I arrived there to find that the daily inspection has been going on for about an hour already, and then the flying only started about an hour after I got there. I watched as much of it as I could, and it certainly seemed like everything got given a really thorough going over. Twice (okay maybe not EVERYTHING - but it sure seemed like each plane did get looked over by at least two people). This after the same people had been flying the same gliders the day before. Even softness told me afterwards that watching all this made her feel all warm and fuzzy about the safety-mindedness.
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Re: Glidings Best kept Secret

Unread post by cymrucuckoo » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:59 am

Power pilots fly through the air and despite it, Glider pilots fly in the air and because if it.
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Re: Glidings Best kept Secret

Unread post by zimba » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:11 am

I already have my PPL, what exercises/hours do I need to get a GPL. Brits is probably the closest to me, can anyone give me an idea of the cost involved at Brits and the likely days they are flying?
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Re: Glidings Best kept Secret

Unread post by PO » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:35 am

Good morning Zimba

We operate on Saturdays from FABS.

For 2012 our fees were:

Yearly fees:
KGC fees R1000 (R500 for bona fide students and scholars)
BFC ~R600 + R300 ('once off' for the erecting of an electified security fence etc)
(You would only need to pay the once off entry fees of approx R1000 for each of BFC & KGC only when you attain your GPL.)
SSSA R750 PA + AeCSA R330 PA.

Flying costs:
Glider hire @ R2.00 / min for a max of 2h, and GRATIS > 2h :).
Tug fees of R215(450M AGL) or R245 (600M AGL) per launch.

We have our AGM this coming SAturday, but I don't see a change in fees for 2013. We do need to belong to BFC as well as they maintain the a/f, and all that goes with it. (We are actaully proud BFC members, ask KlootPiloot!)

For more information you can also visit our Facebook page, as shown on my signature.

PM me your contact details, and I will be in touch.

Kind regards
Last edited by PO on Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:59 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Glidings Best kept Secret

Unread post by FlyingNutter » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:44 am

I drove past Worcester on Sat/Sun - 39C - saw a glider hang around like a kite! Any gliding around PE??
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Re: Glidings Best kept Secret

Unread post by 117 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:54 am

johanp wrote:
Groenie wrote:I would absolutely love to get involved with gliding. If anybody can give an estimate of the costs involved when starting from scratch it would be greatly appreciated? I am in Bellville, so Worchester is probably the place to be, unless there is somewhere else I don’t know of. :D
I would also be very interested to see such an estimate. If you're in Bellville, CGC (Worcester) is the closest, and we can organize a rideshare to save on fuel (and hopefully make the trip less boring)... 3.0 hours in the car for every day's flying, sheesh! :shock:

I went for an intro flight this past weekend - it was fantastic! (thanks to smittiefish, Sarel and the other kind folks of CGC). Although I'll never ever ever again have a glass of wine the day before flying though. Eight hours bottle to throttle my goodness... should be 48 hours per drink...! We spent, what, 30 minutes in the air (I don't think we ever got higher than 4000 ft) and I had a roaring hangover for the rest of the day. ONE glass of wine! And I weigh nearly a 100 kilo's! Aikona...

Anyway, I really liked what I saw there. As a zero-hour-wannabe-someday-PPL-in-training, I arrived there to find that the daily inspection has been going on for about an hour already, and then the flying only started about an hour after I got there. I watched as much of it as I could, and it certainly seemed like everything got given a really thorough going over. Twice (okay maybe not EVERYTHING - but it sure seemed like each plane did get looked over by at least two people). This after the same people had been flying the same gliders the day before. Even softness told me afterwards that watching all this made her feel all warm and fuzzy about the safety-mindedness.
CGC rates for joining are as follows:

First payment to join - R 3 530 (once off), comprised of the following:

R 2 000 - Once off joining fee, non refundable
R 1030 - SSSA (R 750) and Aeroclub ( R330) association annual fee (payable by yourself every year there after)
R 450 - goes towards your flying account to be in credit

There after monthly membership fee's are R 295 per month.

Once you have joined, INSTRUCTION IS FREE.

Glider hire for training in the Ask13's is charged at R 3.15 per minute. Now, here comes the interesting part. There is no set fee (read hours) that you need to do before going solo. It's not a PPL school where you need to complete 45 hours before your ticket is given to you. In gliding, you are sent solo ONLY when you are competent. So it could take you as little as 10 hours, or as much as you need. Launch costs behind the tug is R28 per minute.

Lets make an example of 30 launches at 30min each flight:

30 aerotows at (average 8min aerotow each) - R 6 720
30 flights (at 30min in the front seat) - R 2 835

Total: R 9 555 (works out to R 637 per hour flown vs. R 1 000+ per hour for ppl with a minimum of 45 hours to be flown = R 45 000 +). Disclaimer - this is only an example. Going solo is entirely up to the individuals competence and not based on these figures, but this above is a good indication.

There are cheaper means of launching, by winch for example, and that is charged at R 100 a launch including the hire of the glider. Also, there are many 2 seater ships at the club which are owned by instructors - so getting to know the owners and bumming a free ride also reduces the cost of learning how to fly.

The all important question: How long (weekends/months) will it take you to learn how to fly a glider? I dunno, thats entirely up to you as an individual, the amount of free time (read weekends) you have, how dedicated you are etc.

Ancillary costs: You'll need a class 4 medical (I have no idea of the doctors rates, but expect around R 1000), a restricted radio license (again, no idea of cost these days), RAASA endorsed license (once you obtain your ticket) see http://www.raasa.co.za, travel, text books (there are various available on amazon) etc.

Going solo: Once you have solo'd on the k13, you will burn a few rides on your own in the 2 seater whilst an instructor keeps a beady eye on your flying. You will then be allowed to convert onto the single seater (at R 3.15 per minute) to complete the final stages of your training by yourself, whilst still under supervision (ie: You will need to complete minimum 40 launches total, total 6 hours solo flying, 50km out and return, an outlanding, written theory exam). Once that is complete, you will be given a cross check flight by one of the instructors, as well as completing a practical flight test before being signed off for your GPL.

Gliding is a selfish sport: It takes at least 4 people on the ground to launch you, and then you are the only one to enjoy the rewards. So in return, you will be allotted onto the duty roster at roughly 6 week intervals to give back assistance in helping others fly (normally its one day only on a weekend).
Gliding is also very difficult to book slot times for training, sometimes weather does not play the part for soaring, and hence a slot time could be missed. Understanding of this (not being able to do slot times) is the key to gliding. Its also a sport where you need to get involved in club operations when you start. I dont mean getting onto the committee, but I mean getting involved to help clean, prep, DI, get things ready for the day's flying. Doing this will also teach you to respect the fleet, club, fellow members etc. Sitting on the side lines watching this happen will not get you into the air quicker. Its not a pitch up at a specific time, pay, fly, go home sport like PPL - its an interactive sport which needs hands on from the start. Just remember, instructors in gliding give their time for FREE to teach you how to fly, they get involved not because they get paid, but because they have a passion to the sport. They don't like to see (or hear) about tyre kickers that just want to pitch up, fly and go home, hence it is encouraged to get involved when you join the club to assist and get yourself flying.

@Zimba: With regards to PPL converting onto gliding: You'll need to join your local club, go through the patter of a student. Obviously it will be a lot faster in the competency department because you should know the effects of controls, be able to fly straight and level, turning, radio work, basic met, navigation, air law etc . You'll have to learn how to use your feet and the biggest thing will be energy management whilst flying and in the circuit. So it should be a simple process, but again, it depends on you and your experience, etc. I have no idea on the rates etc at Brits. Get hold of PO on Avcom for more info.

For more info on your nearest club etc, please visit http://www.sssa.org.za or viewtopic.php?f=197&t=89482

Hope this info helps

Cheers
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Re: Glidings Best kept Secret

Unread post by johanp » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:31 am

117 wrote: CGC rates for joining are as follows:
...
Thank you! This is very helpful.

So, realistically, I can budget around R20k (and a lot of weekends) to get a GPL? Er... actually, if you add fuel to drive back and forth, that probably goes up like so, if you live in Cape Town:

40 launches, let's assume 1 launch per day - I expect some days you'd do more, but then some days you'd do none. Round trip from where I live is 200km, let's say I find 1 guy to rideshare with, meaning I only pay for 20 trips. So it's a total of 4000km, at around R2 per km for fuel and maintenance gives me another R8k. (I should add that AA rates for my car is around R3.50 per km, I'm guesstimating a lower value because my insurance actually stays the same regardless of how much I drive). Now, if I can find 3 guys to rideshare with, it goes down to 10 trips, or R4000 for travel costs. Not sure exactly how much interest there would be for ridesharing...

So it looks like I can budget R30k to get a GPL, all-in... this includes some fat for things like books, etc. Of course, some of these anciliary costs will also apply to a PPL, I don't think you're likely to get it done under R65k. So, flying at about half the price :D
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Re: Glidings Best kept Secret

Unread post by johanp » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:41 am

johanp wrote:
117 wrote: CGC rates for joining are as follows:
...
Thank you! This is very helpful.

So, realistically, I can budget ...
So can anyone help with an idea of what the radio license will cost?
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Re: Glidings Best kept Secret

Unread post by 117 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:48 am

You'll probably do 3 or more flights a day, depending on the amount of students per day of course. Dont forget that you can camp over at the club for the weekend, flying on both saturday and sunday, which will reduce your travel time by half again...

Best way to arrange a lift club is to come out to the club and chat to the guys there. Most of them do lift clubs anyway. Not many of the cgc guys are avcom members so it might be difficult in ralleying the troops here.
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Re: Glidings Best kept Secret

Unread post by dtm » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:18 am

FlyingNutter wrote:I drove past Worcester on Sat/Sun - 39C - saw a glider hang around like a kite! Any gliding around PE??
Eastern Province Gliding Club operates from Uitenhage airfield about 30 mins drive from PE. Visit our website at:

http://www.epgliding.co.za/j/images/fil ... g_club.pdf

Please make contact, our flying kicks off this coming Sunday.

Regards
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Re: Glidings Best kept Secret

Unread post by kudu177 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:59 am

GL wrote:The only way for gliding to grow is to make training more accessible. TMGs would be a good start as are MGCs and Parys and others training camps.
Very much agree. While I understand 117's argument that gliding is totally hands-on and requires commitment to the greater good (and no doubt such immersion is likely to foster safer flying), commercial training with paid instructors would, IMHO, attract many more potential pilots to the sport, boost cash flow - and push out the duty roster rotation by a couple of weeks too. Would love to get a GPL - gliding is the most satisfying flying I've ever done.
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Re: Glidings Best kept Secret

Unread post by OG » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:47 am

One of the SSSA's objectives is to develop the sport of gliding, and thus by impication, increase the numbers.
The idea of a commercial gliding school has been mooted for the past two years in various SSSA forums. I think that the SSSA might assist a suitable person(s) to establish such a gliding school.
It certainly is true that going solo in a glider through a club is a tedious process, and it needs to change - fast.
I'd rather be soaring
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Re: Glidings Best kept Secret

Unread post by Surge » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:24 pm

OG wrote:It certainly is true that going solo in a glider through a club is a tedious process, and it needs to change - fast.
I concur that the training process is rather lengthy but it does have some pro's.
I found the instruction decent and very thorough at the club I'm at, regardless of the differences in training method between instructors.
I didn't have sweaty palms or anxiety when I did my solo because after plenty of cable breaks in various situations and landings in just about every weather condition in every wind direction, one becomes accustomed with emergency or non-standard situations.
Being sent solo after rushing through training (without enough time for all the theory and practice to sink in) probably would have made me very nervous.

I soloed in November 2012 at 14.05 hours and 69 flights. Yip, that's a few flights but I'm probably not the fastest learner. :)
It took me a total of 28 flyable weekends so add about another 8 weekends when the weather was too poor to fly (like this summer in Gauteng) or there where logistic problems grounding training operations.
So I managed to average 2.46 flights per day which isn't too bad.

Rough estimate of cost (at current club prices) excluding travel to and from the airfield: R13033
Glider hire: R2233
8 aerotows: R2205
61 winch launches: R2745
Club fees: R4800
2012 SSSA + Aero Club fees: R1050
Effective flying cost per hour: R927

It was worth it though even though it took a lot of time and a "few" Rands. Soaring is an amazing experience!

Shortening the training process (more intensive training) would certainly help with regards to promoting the sport and retaining new members.
Now days a lot of people don't have an entire day to set aside every weekend for months on end. I'm lucky to have an understanding wife ...

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