LANGUAGE PROFICIENCY RATINGS

Questions for the South African Civil Aviation Authority.

Moderator: Moderators

rod smith
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Unread post by rod smith » Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:55 pm

If you get nervous during interviews and "stutter and stammer" what will happen when you have an emergency in the cockpit? Might you not be just as nervous?

As tricky or sensitive an issue as this is, and as much as it is going to pee off the average pilot, I still come across ATCs I cannot really understand as a consequence of heavy accents. I daily listen to South African TV announcers I cannot understand. These guys would not (should not?) be on the air, either as ATCs or as TV announcers. Will the ALPI not solve the problem? How now to differentiate these from the rest without a uniform and transparent process that applies equally to all?

Rod Smith
User avatar
kevinbark
Six Tousand
Six Tousand
Posts: 6102
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:24 pm
Closest Airfield: EGLC
Location: Between two Tays
Has liked: 2 times
Been liked: 0

Unread post by kevinbark » Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:10 pm

\m/ <(-_-)> \m/
Last edited by kevinbark on Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
sky waiter
Hee Hee I'm Flying
Posts: 253
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 8:36 am
Location: Front Right Hand Seat
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Unread post by sky waiter » Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:00 pm

Ok so the moral of the story is?

Do we have to do the test or not- i was under the impression that if you hold a matric certificate with english as a first language you are exempt.

I recieved an e mail from a testing centre today saying this is not the case and you will all have to be tested by march 2008. I dont see why i now have to fork out more money to keep my licence valid.....

Its enough already doctors lawyers and the like dont get tested on their use of the language!
Come off the locks for the before take off checks please.....
rod smith
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Unread post by rod smith » Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:35 pm

Kevin

No infinitive in that sentence! But I do forget to ocassionally check on my infinitives. It gets a trifle embarrassing.

Rod Smith
ahmed
Engine Started
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:25 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Unread post by ahmed » Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:06 pm

I see that most posters here never bothered to read the AIC or other documents on the subject and chose to react emotionally.

My understanding of this process is that it is not the pilot's fluency in English that is going to be tested, but rather their ability to communicate in its aviation form.

The examples given in the ICAO documents say that even native English speakers can fail the exam end end up beign given lesser of the "expert" level of the rating.
"He that WILL NOT reason is a bigot;
He that CANNOT REASON is a fool;
He that DARE NOT reason is a slave"
— H. Drummond
User avatar
Dave
1k poster
1k poster
Posts: 1311
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 1:00 pm
Location: Port Elizabeth
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Unread post by Dave » Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:46 pm

ahmed wrote:My understanding of this process is that it is not the pilot's fluency in English that is going to be tested, but rather their ability to communicate in its aviation form.
I would disagree! To quote a paragraph from a document relating to the type of testing required by ICAO.

"While seeking to make test content relevant, designers should ensure that no material of a strictly operational nature is introduced. This restriction on test content is essential to ensure that the focus of the test remains on the use of plain language, and avoids any implication that evaluation of specialised operational language (such as formulaic phraseology) is part of the test.

In the same document.

.............Controllers' and pilots' application of formulaic phraseology is tested by operational examiners as a part of States' regulatory programmes. ie This reference is to the testing already done for the Restricted and General Radio Licence.

And further

.....The phraseologies to be tested in compliance with the ICAO language provisions are those phraseologies that are used in plain language and work-related aviation language that are devoid of operational significance.

So the "tick in the box" approach therefore, is still the correct way to go for "native English speakers"
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. Douglas Adams
User avatar
dilligaf
Too Tousand
Too Tousand
Posts: 2272
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:21 pm
Closest Airfield: FACT
Location: Cape Town
Has liked: 2 times
Been liked: 3 times

Unread post by dilligaf » Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:35 am

ahmed wrote:I see that most posters here never bothered to read the AIC or other documents on the subject and chose to react emotionally.

My understanding of this process is that it is not the pilot's fluency in English that is going to be tested, but rather their ability to communicate in its aviation form.

The examples given in the ICAO documents say that even native English speakers can fail the exam end end up beign given lesser of the "expert" level of the rating.
Not really worth responding on this rubbish. I'll let ICAO do it for me.

Have a listen for yourself. I'd love to see them give a Geordie a level 5 or less based on this.

http://www.ulc.gov.pl/download/ICAO_LPR ... scale.html
User avatar
dilligaf
Too Tousand
Too Tousand
Posts: 2272
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:21 pm
Closest Airfield: FACT
Location: Cape Town
Has liked: 2 times
Been liked: 3 times

Re: LANGUAGE PROFICIENCY RATINGS

Unread post by dilligaf » Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:40 am

CAA wrote:Hello Everyone

Attached, please find the draft document pertaining to language proficiency ratings. Please note that this is a DRAFT for comment; please do not start submitting your documentation yet.

Any constructive input on the draft will be appreciated.

Deadline for comment is Thursday, 12 July 2007.
All comments posted on this thread by the deadline, will be submitted for consideration
Mary

It's been over a month since the 7 day deadline we were given to provide feedback. When can we expect some form of response from CAA on this issue ?

D
janb
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Unread post by janb » Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:44 pm

I've been off the radar for a while so my response is very late.

a) I understand that any law in SA cannot make any difference between a native English speaker and others. That would possibly be regarded as discriminatory.
b) I would think that ICAO's ruling is based on countries having their whole aviation culture set in their own language. Go to Portugal or any of their colonies, all their documents and tests are in Portuguese.

Based on the assumptions above, I would think that the SA-CAA is already testing its candidates on their proficiency of the English language, seeing that all documents and exams are now published in English only.

A check box on a renewal form, or an endorsement from a qualified controller, should be enough to meet the ICAO requirements, no?
Then the candidate has proved his/her proficiency in both written and spoken language.

Incidentally, while flying in Angola I heard of a lot of Angolans that could not get a South African validation because they could not pass the law test. Indeed, law tends to be rather complicated, and a good understanding of English is needed to pass.
I would think that anyone that has passed the SA exams in English in the past, has already proven competency in that regard.

Although I would not mind paying a controller some bucks for the form, I do not see why this should incur any other costs. Make it part of your next renewal and all is done.

I would imagine this is a once off, and not something that needs to be renewed?
Boet
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Unread post by Boet » Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:19 pm

I am a real Boertjie, living in a small town, out here in the middle of nowhere. It costs me enough already to keep my licence current. Let alone travelling to god-knows-where, just to go prove to some expert that I am indeed fluent in the use of the Queens` lingo. I wrote all my flying exams in English, and passed them. I have to SPEAK English daily, and nobody is complaining that they can not understand me. CAA, please stop wasting my hard-earned money. I side with the "Tick in the box" at flight renewal time. PLEEEEEEZE :!:






Matric, English, second language, and a C. (And proud of it.)
User avatar
Horace Blok
Tree Tousand
Tree Tousand
Posts: 3317
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:55 am
Closest Airfield: FAMO
Location: GBR - Great Brak River
Has liked: 259 times
Been liked: 93 times

Unread post by Horace Blok » Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:32 pm

I also heard last evening that there was a discussion at the Industry Liaison Forum and that attempts are to be made to get English speaking countries/persons exempted from this absurd ruling.

I am aware Canada asked ICAO to be exempted - ICAO never budged. Location of ICAO Headquarters? Montreal, Canada.
ICAO Rejects IAOPA Language Petition

At one of its final sessions prior to summer recess the ICAO Air Navigation Commission rejected IAOPA’s petition to provide relief from Annex 1 language proficiency provisions. The ICAO standard requires all pilots and controllers flying internationally and using radio communications to be proficient either in English or in the native language of the country in which the aircraft operates. IAOPA had petitioned IAOPA to exempt pilots operating VFR in Class D, E, F, and G airspace, since ATC separation is not provided in that airspace.

Reasons for the ANC rejecting the petition were the need to use the radio in emergency situations and the safety advantages of traffic advisories provided to aircraft in Class D and E airspace. Frank Hofmann, IAOPA Representative to ICAO, stated, “We are naturally disappointed in this outcome, but we shall attempt to modify the language proficiency standard in another manner.”
Oh - and to add insult to injury - had to pay an additional R200 to get this "convenience" onto my "licence". Total R 941-. :evil:
Hartog
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
⏺ Respect for ourselves guides our morals; respect for others guides our manners.

▶️ Life isn't a dress rehearsal.

➡️ Try to learn from the mistakes of others - you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.
User avatar
markus_m2
1k poster
1k poster
Posts: 1435
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:33 pm
Location: Pretoria
Has liked: 16 times
Been liked: 79 times

Unread post by markus_m2 » Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:35 pm

Hi Mary,
Is there any news on these language proficiency ratings? When will this new requirement be enforced, and will it still be possible to get a "temporary" rating based on, for example, a matric certificate?

Thanks

Markus
User avatar
CAA
1k poster
1k poster
Posts: 1223
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:20 am
Location: Midrand
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 0

Language Proficiency Update

Unread post by CAA » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:34 am

Below, please find the proposed amendment to the Technical Standard pertaining to Language proficiency.

12. Acceptance of Prior Learning or Foreign CAA language certification:

a. The SA CAA will accept foreign CAA language certification and issue the
relevant rating into the applicant’s licence.
b. For existing South African pilot licences only:
i. Prior to 28 February 2008, the CAA will certify the holder of a South
African Private Pilot Licence or Commercial Pilot Licence held for a
period of two years or longer at Level 4.
ii. Prior to 28 February 2008, the CAA will certify the holder of an
Instrument Rating for a South African Pilot licence at Level 5.
iii. All licence holders who have been granted initial certification by the
CAA at Level 4 and 5 will be required to undergo language proficiency
testing when applying for a higher licence.
Kind Regards
Mary Stephens
Senior Manager: Consistency and Standardisation
Aviation Safety Operations
SACAA
b787800
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Unread post by b787800 » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:59 am

Dea Mary

As the holder of a valid IF rating how do one get the grade on your licence? Will it be added automatically or will one have to come in and get the revised licence?
User avatar
Chris
10000 and still climbing
10000 and still climbing
Posts: 12038
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2003 3:46 pm
Closest Airfield: Fape
Location: FAPE
Has liked: 16 times
Been liked: 3 times

Unread post by Chris » Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:25 am

Hi Mary

While some relief is better than none I do not think this has gone far enough.

1) Are you aware that ICAO have allowed a delay in the implementation of language ratings after a meeting with the FAI and AOPA? Why are CAA still pushing ahead and not using the 3 year implementation period for VFR pilots? Are you aware that certain countries with English as their home language are giving their pilots the required ratings with no additional testing?

2) Was any consideration given to the fact that in South Africa all exams are in English (unlike, for example in Europe where the pilots will write the exams in their home language like German, Polish, etc). The exemption given above is only for existing pilots but from 28 Feb 2008 the SACAA is going full steam ahead enforcing something that is not even required by ICAO yet.

3) Was any consideration given to allowing flight instructors to do a test to allow them to do the tests? Once again this has been done in countries where English is not the home language of pilots and where it is not even an official language of the country.

4) Was any consideration given to the fact the language proficiency (in 3 years time) is only for international flights. Something very few SA PPLs will ever do.


It is still ludicrous that a pilot, with English as his/her home language (and possibly with a degree that was taken in English) who sits in a cockpit with an instructor for hours while doing the practical flying training probably talking to ATC, who writes exams in English (after sitting through hours of lectures that are presented in English) will be required to fork out money and waste time proving that he/she can speak English.

The absolute minimum we as pilots require is a delay of 3 years as agreed by ICAO - not a few months. I would be interested to know why we have to comply with rules that have been delayed by ICAO
Last edited by Chris on Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:25 am, edited 3 times in total.
Chris Booysen
A ship is safe in a harbour, but that is not what it is built for.

Return to “CAA General Questions”