Where do I get a report?

Questions for Air Traffic Navigation Services.

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OtherSelkon
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Where do I get a report?

Unread post by OtherSelkon » Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:12 pm

We recently had a problem where ATC descended one of our aircraft through the level of another aircraft. This resulted in a separation of less that 5NM between the aircraft at the same level. My crew filed an incident report. I as safety officer for our organisation need a report of what happened from ATC and corrective action taken. This is not to apportion blame, but to create a rectificcation action plan.

So far, I have been shoved from pillar to post and everyone seems to be ducking the issue. You cannot even get a copy of the tapes which I feel I am entitled to. Who can I speak to to get a report so I can close out the incident on my side?
Sean Selkon - Air Safety Officer

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Re: Where do I get a report?

Unread post by Ugly Duckling » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:46 pm

Try towerfundi, boomslang or opsmike by pm
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Re: Where do I get a report?

Unread post by Thndr_strck » Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:53 pm

Not sure where this happened, but minimum separation in the FAOR TMA has been reduced to 3nm.
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Re: Where do I get a report?

Unread post by boomsl@ng » Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:46 pm

ATNS investigates such events on behalf of the SACAA and they are not entitled to release any information without authorization from them. Recordings such as the radio or radar tapes are also protected by legislation and may not be released either. Your best bet would be to contact the ATC department at SACAA who would be able to provide you with some detail once the initial investigation or full investigation has been completed by ATNS.

Not sure in which airspace the event occurred but there could be a few reasons such as VMC descents, reduced seperation in the vicinity of an aerodrome or even 1000ft separation which would not make it a reduction. As was said by Thunder in the JHB TMA 3nm OR 1000ft is the separation minima. In the vicinity of the tower its even less than that.
OtherSelkon
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Re: Where do I get a report?

Unread post by OtherSelkon » Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:07 pm

boomsl@ng wrote:ATNS investigates such events on behalf of the SACAA and they are not entitled to release any information without authorization from them. Recordings such as the radio or radar tapes are also protected by legislation and may not be released either. Your best bet would be to contact the ATC department at SACAA who would be able to provide you with some detail once the initial investigation or full investigation has been completed by ATNS.

Not sure in which airspace the event occurred but there could be a few reasons such as VMC descents, reduced seperation in the vicinity of an aerodrome or even 1000ft separation which would not make it a reduction. As was said by Thunder in the JHB TMA 3nm OR 1000ft is the separation minima. In the vicinity of the tower its even less than that.

This happened on the descent into Sishen. The ATSU was Area West. As can be seen from most of the replies here, there is no formal contact point for operators to contact ATNS for such requests. It also appears that legislation is there to protect the ATNS controllers. Anywhere else in the world you can even listen to the ATC live. So be it. I will take it up with the CAA for what it is worth.

Thanks to all who replied, I really appreciate your effort.
Sean Selkon - Air Safety Officer

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Re: Where do I get a report?

Unread post by FUXFILES » Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:34 pm

If your aircraft was involved, surely you have a right to feedback and information and surely legislation is thus protecting the atc by not divulging feedback to your company. So much for safety management system and a just learning culture. I assume noone has contacted you in this regard and hence your posting. Try the CEO because he is ultimately responsible for the company's safety. This sounds like a cover up to me. Might I suggest u liaise with the other aircraft involved and ascertain if they have perhaps heard anything before you attempt to contact the CEO ATNS, which you have a right to do, and find out why the cloak and dagger charade.
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Re: Where do I get a report?

Unread post by OtherSelkon » Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:03 pm

FUXFILES wrote:If your aircraft was involved, surely you have a right to feedback and information and surely legislation is thus protecting the atc by not divulging feedback to your company. So much for safety management system and a just learning culture. I assume noone has contacted you in this regard and hence your posting. Try the CEO because he is ultimately responsible for the company's safety. This sounds like a cover up to me. Might I suggest u liaise with the other aircraft involved and ascertain if they have perhaps heard anything before you attempt to contact the CEO ATNS, which you have a right to do, and find out why the cloak and dagger charade.

I'll bet your bottom dollar that BA will get the info they need on their 747 mishap.
Sean Selkon - Air Safety Officer

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Re: Where do I get a report?

Unread post by craigg123 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:10 pm

All ATC related incidents are published in the "Safety Net" which is published every month or so and is distributed to the major operators, this publication does also include remedial actions taken . If the incident you are referring to was on the 7th of May between a J328 and BE20 in the vicinity of FASS where the separation reduced to 4.8NM it was published in the latest "Safety Net" and i can scan you a copy of it if you want? Investigations involve lots of red tape and take time, if the incident you are referring to was within the last 3 or 4 months it may take a bit more time before it is published. Regarding the "tapes", unfortunately my undertanding is you are not entitled to them as they are protected by law, you will only have access to them via a court order.
OtherSelkon
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Re: Where do I get a report?

Unread post by OtherSelkon » Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:06 pm

craigg123 wrote:All ATC related incidents are published in the "Safety Net" which is published every month or so and is distributed to the major operators, this publication does also include remedial actions taken . If the incident you are referring to was on the 7th of May between a J328 and BE20 in the vicinity of FASS where the separation reduced to 4.8NM it was published in the latest "Safety Net" and i can scan you a copy of it if you want? Investigations involve lots of red tape and take time, if the incident you are referring to was within the last 3 or 4 months it may take a bit more time before it is published. Regarding the "tapes", unfortunately my undertanding is you are not entitled to them as they are protected by law, you will only have access to them via a court order.
Our incident was in November and separation was down to around 3 nm.

I understand the tapes should not be public domain, but as an operator that is directly involved, how do I know how to do corrective action without all the facts? This law appears to be there to protect ATC as looked at from an outsiders perspective. I feel I should have the opportunity to be involved in the investigation as the other party involved.
Sean Selkon - Air Safety Officer

And no I don't post or hide behind any other avatar on AVCOM in case you were wondering.
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Re: Where do I get a report?

Unread post by boomsl@ng » Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:07 am

OtherSelkon wrote:
craigg123 wrote:All ATC related incidents are published in the "Safety Net" which is published every month or so and is distributed to the major operators, this publication does also include remedial actions taken . If the incident you are referring to was on the 7th of May between a J328 and BE20 in the vicinity of FASS where the separation reduced to 4.8NM it was published in the latest "Safety Net" and i can scan you a copy of it if you want? Investigations involve lots of red tape and take time, if the incident you are referring to was within the last 3 or 4 months it may take a bit more time before it is published. Regarding the "tapes", unfortunately my undertanding is you are not entitled to them as they are protected by law, you will only have access to them via a court order.
Our incident was in November and separation was down to around 3 nm.

I understand the tapes should not be public domain, but as an operator that is directly involved, how do I know how to do corrective action without all the facts? This law appears to be there to protect ATC as looked at from an outsiders perspective. I feel I should have the opportunity to be involved in the investigation as the other party involved.
OS your only point of contact should be the SACAA accident and incident department. No one (including the CEO or chairman of the board) in ATNS is allowed to release information to any party (involved or not) as they are only doing the Air Traffic Service part of the investigations on behalf of the SACAA. Recordings be it voice or electronic such as radar tapes are protected by law and only a judge may order the release thereof. And only if through the initial investigation foul play is/was suspected intentionally. aT best you may receive a copy of the transcripts once the full investigation has been completed by the SACAA.

The law is the same for pilots and their CVR's. You will face the same wall of priviledged information protection trying to access the tapes of the BA 747 or any other operators CVR's.
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Re: Where do I get a report?

Unread post by Vox Populi » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:16 pm

ATNS takes incident investigation very serious, and believe me, the ATC does not get spared he/she will be reprimanded for the smallest of things, like not signing on in the sign on book or the shift roster. Giving non standard routings, that mostly expedite and save customers fuel etc. I remember that incident and it has been completed at unit level, where it is now in the bureaucracy chain is another question. Controller was suspended, it happens immediately until unit investigation is completed and remedial actions has been agreed upon by management and implemented.

Good luck and safe flying...

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