Loss of Separation or Near Miss

Questions for Air Traffic Navigation Services.

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
ACE MAN
Tree Tousand
Tree Tousand
Posts: 3892
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:53 am
Closest Airfield: FAKT+VHHH+FAPX
Location: iKhaya mina 22N114E
Has liked: 293 times
Been liked: 60 times

Re: Loss of Separation or Near Miss

Unread post by ACE MAN » Sun May 17, 2009 2:24 pm

Elbow wrote:A question from a new PPL: what are the responsibilities of ATC in respect of VFR traffic? I understand that they provide separation for IFR from IFR and IFR from VFR, but not VFR from VFR. But in a control zone they will give VFR traffic routings to use. And VFR pilots need to obey or clearly say unable (and I guess why).

What happens if a VFR pilot obeys an instruction from an ATC but due to an error that instruction will put them in conflict with another VFR aircraft? What if that were to lead to an "airprox" between the two VFR flights, or worse, to a collision?

Regards,
Elbow
ATC - should provide vfr traffic with traffic information - that is known traffic or if, with the use of radar, unidentified traffic - VFR in essence is ' eyeball mk 2' - my 2c
IITYWTMWYBMAD
Nomakhanjani
¯¯VAF¯¯
User avatar
Thndr_strck
1k poster
1k poster
Posts: 1570
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:36 pm
Location: Port Elizabeth
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Loss of Separation or Near Miss

Unread post by Thndr_strck » Mon May 18, 2009 7:44 pm

elbow wrote:A question from a new PPL: what are the responsibilities of ATC in respect of VFR traffic? I understand that they provide separation for IFR from IFR and IFR from VFR, but not VFR from VFR. But in a control zone they will give VFR traffic routings to use. And VFR pilots need to obey or clearly say unable (and I guess why).

What happens if a VFR pilot obeys an instruction from an ATC but due to an error that instruction will put them in conflict with another VFR aircraft? What if that were to lead to an "airprox" between the two VFR flights, or worse, to a collision?

Regards,
Elbow
If 2 or more vfr flights look like they might conflict(obviously in a radar environment), traffic info is passed to all aircraft concerned. Preferably this info should include: aircraft type, direction of flight, altitude, and if possible, position of aircraft relative to the other aircraft e.g. 5 o'clock position. It is then up to the VFR pilots to keep a look out for the other aircraft. Also please note that unless the ATC requests it, you do not have to report traffic in sight.

In a non-radar environment, the ATC relies on what the pilots tell him, and the ATC then uses this info as well as his knowledge of his airspace, to determine if there is a conflict, and then pass traffic information as passed by the pilots(not always reliable tho).

Basically VFR is - see, and be seen.

Even on VFR routings, you as VFR pilot are responsible for your own separation.
When in doubt...DON'T !!
ATNS Comms
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Loss of Separation or Near Miss

Unread post by ATNS Comms » Mon May 25, 2009 1:11 pm

Dear Elbow,

I apologize for the delay, but in response to your comment below, I hope the following is of use:

The first point to consider is the type of airspace wherein the particular VFR takes place: ICAO Annex 11, appendix 4 describes, among other, the requirements for type of service and type of separation to be provided in different types of airspace. By way of an example, in category C airspace, IFR flights get separation fro IFR flights but not from VFR flight. Separation for VFR flights from VFR flights would only happen on request.

Where an ATC issue an instruction that will compromise the safety of such a flight, it is up to the pilot in command, as the one ultimately responsible for the aircraft’s safety, to report to ATC that such an instruction will compromise the safety. The ATC will then issue an alternate clearance.
User avatar
Skyjuggler
Tripped over wheel chock
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:12 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Loss of Separation or Near Miss

Unread post by Skyjuggler » Mon May 25, 2009 9:15 pm

hi Elbow

You ask a good question. In addition to what ATNS Comms has said, you're also well within your rights to request separation from ATC. Then they should try and make a plan to make you feel a little safer in the air...
User avatar
tanglefoot
Fower Tousand
Fower Tousand
Posts: 4800
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:05 am
Closest Airfield: FAGC
Location: Jhb
Has liked: 6 times
Been liked: 0

Re: Loss of Separation or Near Miss

Unread post by tanglefoot » Tue May 26, 2009 8:16 am

Skyjuggler wrote:hi Elbow

You ask a good question. In addition to what ATNS Comms has said, you're also well within your rights to request separation from ATC. Then they should try and make a plan to make you feel a little safer in the air...
Chances are that they will do that for you....

By kicking your VFR butt to the nearest boundary :wink: in a nice way, I'm sure. :)
Wings are for fairies. Runways are for models...........................................
Don't get caught by Business Directory Scams. Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/55011156703/
Historical info on stopwbd.za.org
ATNS Comms
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Loss of Separation or Near Miss

Unread post by ATNS Comms » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:26 am

Dear Elbow,

Somehow, someway, there was an error uploading my response message, I posted it, but I think something went wrong. I hope this helps...

The first point to consider the type of airspace wherein the particular VFR takes place: ICAO Annex 11, appendix 4 describes, among other, the requirements for type of service and type of separation to be provided in different types of airspace. By way of an example, in category C airspace, IFR flights get separation fro IFR flights but not from VFR flight. Separation for VFR flights from VFR flights would only happen on request.

Where an ATC issue an instruction that will compromise the safety of such a flight, it is up to the pilot in command, as the one ultimately responsible for the aircraft’s safety, to report to ATC that such an instruction will compromise the safety. The ATC will then issue an alternate clearance.

Regards,
ATNS Comms
Aspiring Mango
Lining Up
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:28 am
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 2 times

Re: Loss of Separation or Near Miss

Unread post by Aspiring Mango » Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:00 am

As far as I know there are no published ICAO separation standards between VFR a/c, so skyjuggler if you want to fly VFR and be separated you can expect some interesting solutions and as tanglefoot says, one of you is going out of controlled airspace for starters, or the very long way around the route you want to go!
ATNS Comms
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

FCC Flight planning tips

Unread post by ATNS Comms » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:36 am

Dear All,

Herewith an attachment that you may find useful.

Regards,
ATNS Comms
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
ATNS Comms
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Loss of Separation or Near Miss

Unread post by ATNS Comms » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:46 am

Dear Aspiring Mango,

In response to your comment, I have the following update from our Senior Manager Operations North...

ICAO Annex 11, appendix 4 describes, among other, the requirements for type of service and type of separation to be provided in different types of airspace. By way of an example, in category C airspace, IFR flights get separation fro IFR flights but not from VFR flight. Separation for VFR flights from VFR flights would only happen on request. Additionally it should be noted that in the vicinity of an aerodrome separation standards are normally relaxed (ICAO Doc 4444, Chapter 6).

The type of Air Traffic Service that is being provided will also play a role when determining what separation you can expect. Controlled VFR in a radar environment and controlled VFR in procedural approach Terminal Airspace (TMA) can expect significantly different types of separation.

More on the interesting topic of Procedural Approach control can be found in ICAO Doc 4444, Chapter 5.

I hope that this is of use to you. If you have any further queries, do not hesitate to contact me.

Regards,
ATNS Comms
User avatar
nugpot
Too Tousand
Too Tousand
Posts: 2486
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:58 pm
Closest Airfield: MBL
Location: the non-ANC province
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 6 times

Re: Loss of Separation or Near Miss

Unread post by nugpot » Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:57 am

Dougie wrote:There is no such thing as a “Near Miss” that is a fanciful slang term that has found its way into aviation probably through over zealous reporters trying to make a report sound exciting.
Not really true. It might be slang for ATC's, but the SAAF used "near miss" as a term to describe unplanned close proximity air encounters which could have resulted in a collision. This was both in official and colloquial use. The probable reason why it is still in extensive colloquial use in SA today is because so many of the pilots around were SAAF trained.

Return to “ATNS”