JNB 121.7: Ready for Start

Questions for Air Traffic Navigation Services.

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Q4NVS
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JNB 121.7: Ready for Start

Unread post by Q4NVS » Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:46 pm

After obtaining your Clearance from JNB Clearance Delivery you are instructed to "Call Back this frequency Ready for Start..."

In this day and age, where firstly you have a Schedule which is monitored To-the-Minute by the Operator, given a CTOT together with your Clearance...why do you need to go back to the same frequency only to sit in the que behind 4 aircraft requesting clearance as well as 3 reporting "Ready for Start".

Surely if you have given us a Clearance and CTOT, we can simply "Request Start" from JNB Ground. I am still waiting for the "Standby Start" from Clearance Delivery, while on numerous occasions have received such from JNB Ground.

The point is that while we are occupying the Clearance Delivery frequency with Clearances (it's original intention) we are delaying aircraft who are "Ready for Start" simply because they cannot get a word in for the sacred ATNS "Permission" to "Contact Ground 121.65".

Could someone please look-think-change so that we can get a more streamlined system that actually improves flow through :shock:
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Re: JNB 121.7: Ready for Start

Unread post by Swampdonkey » Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:34 pm

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
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Re: JNB 121.7: Ready for Start

Unread post by boomsl@ng » Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:51 am

Clearance manages the compliance to CTOT and this keeps the controlling frequencies clear of the related clutter. This is the best method of managing the start process and to try and alleviate the congestion of GMC and also at the hold after taxi. If the Ground controller has a few extra seconds it also means a better sequence with the least overall delay.

Biggest problem we have with the slot system at the moment is with the mix of left and right turns and aircraft performance. Ie. 03 in use and you have 10 starting all on left turns and 10 minutes later the 10 right turns start with 3 caravans or 1900's also going east. All of them have started within CTOT compliance so you are kinda stuffed. Delaying start means you are just adding to the next 15minute period. A caravan ahead of a faster aircraft generally means 5 minutes before the faster one can depart. If I have left and right turns of similar performance I can launch 5 jets within 5 minutes. Now you sit with 2 aircraft departed in 5 minutes.

We do try to turn the slower aircraft early but this is dependant on what is landing on the right and also they cannot turn before reaching a safe or noise abatement prescribed altitude.

No system is perfect but by doing it this way there's a lot less delay on GMC with engines started than what was the case a few years ago.
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Re: JNB 121.7: Ready for Start

Unread post by sweptwing » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:55 am

When will the dreaded CTOT be dumped at out stations? There is just to many variables that affects your ETA for the arrival point. From there on it's all standard speeds again anyways...
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Re: JNB 121.7: Ready for Start

Unread post by Atc_pilot » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:10 pm

CTOTs don't just regulate traffic in the vicinity of an aerodrome. They also regulate the en-route flow. Once again it promotes a less overall delay. Without them area/approach run the risk of becoming over loaded, which results in flow restrictions and greater delays.
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Re: JNB 121.7: Ready for Start

Unread post by sweptwing » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:35 am

Maybe in theory, but in the real world it doesn't work for on time performance. What was wrong with the old system? What difference is making you wait for 2 min in RCB going to do? Does ATC know the type of climb going to be used? Do they know what the actual winds will be? What cruise setting will be used? How many times I've taken off on ctot and then were told to hold.... Makes your blood boil. Could even one day be a flight risk! I still stick with the fact that it doesn't work along with the rest of the country's airline pilots....

Over and out! Think I'll go fly my Cub in uncontrolled airspace now where I can relax!

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Re: JNB 121.7: Ready for Start

Unread post by ElTorroloco » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:23 am

I also don't think the CTOT system is being implimented properly

All slot systems are stategic tools, while tactically it needs informed, up to date input to work, which it doesn't get.
CTOTS are NOT available to the Radar Planner (the person with the most information and skills) but are available to CAMU and CLD (imo have the least of the forementioned)
It's a good system in principle, but garbage in, garbage out I'm afraid ;/
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Re: JNB 121.7: Ready for Start

Unread post by CALCULATOR » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:37 pm

CAMU
CAKE AND MUFFIN UNIT-AND THATS ALL THEY ARE GOOD FOR!
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Re: JNB 121.7: Ready for Start

Unread post by divesailfly » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:17 am

Any ATC with a quick answer and backing up reference?
From how early Before scheduled departure may we ask for the Departure Clearance?
20 mins or 30 min?
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Re: JNB 121.7: Ready for Start

Unread post by Thndr_strck » Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:42 pm

Flight progress strips activate aprox 30 minutes before ETD. You can ask for clearance before that, but be prepared for a possible change, as conditions and traffic patterns can change constantly. From personal experience, most of the airliners call about 10 minutes prior to start.
At a station with SID's it shouldn't be a problem if your flight can comply with a SID, otherwise you might be asked to wait for clearance until you start. This would be done so the ATC's can plan your departure in current and near future traffic sequencing.
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Re: JNB 121.7: Ready for Start

Unread post by nawaz » Sat Nov 08, 2014 9:10 am

In this day and age, where firstly you have a Schedule which is monitored To-the-Minute by the Operator, given a CTOT together with your Clearance...why do you need to go back to the same frequency only to sit in the que behind 4 aircraft requesting clearance as well as 3 reporting "Ready for Start". :D
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Re: JNB 121.7: Ready for Start

Unread post by Sprayline » Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:35 am

Why even bother waiting? If you are ready and someone is taking an age to read back the clearance along with errors to be corrected and others are waiting just call ground and say "congestion on clearance, request start". Enough people do this and intransigent ATNS staffers will get the drift and see that it is not the most efficient or proative system on offer. Our ATC system has a lot of room for improvement if only we could get ATC's to listen more than they talk but it seems every suggestion/critisism/comment elicits a defensive response and no progress is made. Witness this thread of some three years back and we are still stuck in this really poor system. This is not a criticism of ATC's per sé, more of a system that only seems to work for one party. That party ironically is not the user nor the customer.
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Re: JNB 121.7: Ready for Start

Unread post by ACE MAN » Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:02 pm

This procedure is pretty common at all intl airfields that I operate to and is per an international standard.
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Re: JNB 121.7: Ready for Start

Unread post by Sprayline » Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:49 pm

Care to list them? It is not common to the airfields I frequent.
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Re: JNB 121.7: Ready for Start

Unread post by ACE MAN » Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:58 pm

Cdg, ams,fco, Hkg, del
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