Pakistan International PK8303 Crash

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Re: Pakistan International PK8303 Crash

Unread post by chrisbe20 » Fri May 22, 2020 11:14 pm

I stand to be corrected, but doesn't the accessory gearbox for a CFM engine sit on the bottom?
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Re: Pakistan International PK8303 Crash

Unread post by Triaan » Sat May 23, 2020 9:02 am

So what if the LG lowered but not locked,(but perhaps indicating locked) plane comes down to land, gear gives, one leg slightly before the other, hence the two bang sounds heard by the survivor as the motors hit the runway, first the one then the other. Pilots then pull up realizing what happened. Engines die RAT deployed.

Look at the engines from the pic earlier on posted by Chuck, both engines have clear to see dark markings (scraping or oil ?) on the bottom of both engines.
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Re: Pakistan International PK8303 Crash

Unread post by Maximusza » Sat May 23, 2020 9:50 am

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Re: Pakistan International PK8303 Crash

Unread post by Chuck » Sat May 23, 2020 9:57 am

I have analysed that ATC recording posted by HAAN and edited the recording to a shortened file with only the messages between ATC and PK8303, deleting communications with other aircraft and some of the long silent pieces.

I will attempt to upload the file with this post.
PK8303crashATCshortened (4).mp4
edit for clarification: about 7 minutes and 45 seconds pass between the start of the first radio call and the end of the last radio call in the sound clip I posted above.
edit2 for correctness : the pilot request to return for the approach (0:48 in the upload) was missing in the previous version. This occurs after the go around and and a cockpit 'ding' and an engine can be heard reving up in the background.
apologies for the inconvenience.

The start of the communication indicates that the aircraft experienced problems before the start of the recording IMHO. The pilot says "Sir, we are ... comfortable now", at the time the aircraft is getting established on the approach.

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Last edited by Chuck on Sat May 23, 2020 4:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pakistan International PK8303 Crash

Unread post by RVSM » Sat May 23, 2020 10:25 am

The ATC recording is a bit puzzling. Would be useful to hear the entire sequence. From where it starts it sounds as though the APP controller tried to re-vector the aircraft back onto the ILS. ATC says “HDG 180” Pilot says “we are comfortable we can make it InshAllah” which I think refers to their height not a technical issue. ATC again says “left HDG 180” Pilot says “Negative we are established on ILS 25L” ATC seems concerned with altitude & says what sounds like “You are 5 miles from touchdown (although the last word is unclear) still passing 3500”. Google says airfield elevation is 100FT, my brain says they are too high. Pilot says “Roger” ATC says “cleared to land” the master alarm goes off in the background as the pilot reads it back. Fixated on continuing the approach because of ego “I can make this”, because of the technical fault “we have to make this” or because of a combination.
So is this the missed approach that causes the engine damage or had it already happened? Reports say multiple approaches but passenger says the crashed happened during second attempt. People are unreliable, esp after a crash, but I want to believe him.
Then when the crew eventually report dual engine failure on the downwind after a number of prompts regarding their altitude the ATC seems to immediately mention “a belly landing” which is a bizarre response that suggests either a landing gear issue was previously reported or something was seen by the TWR (early retraction which looked like a gear failure, or maybe because the aircraft is now on a tight left base with the gear still up?) My money is on the latter, but that’s just me.

Edit: Just watched the videos that were posted while I was lazily typing so a lot of this was covered already.
Follow up, wonder what the tower visibility is like, if the gear was not down there are going to be serious questions asked of why the ATC didn’t notice it- two engines being the only things hanging beneath the wings are hard to miss!
Last edited by RVSM on Sat May 23, 2020 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pakistan International PK8303 Crash

Unread post by Triaan » Sat May 23, 2020 10:37 am

Interesting RVSM, many questions indeed and one big question to add to it,
what was the master alarm indicating that early in flight at 2:53 (from original clip)

Nothing mentioned by the pilots regarding it with ATC communications it seems.

We need FDR and CVR
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Re: Pakistan International PK8303 Crash

Unread post by RVSM » Sat May 23, 2020 10:54 am

120 seconds for that gear recycle checklist, inside 5NM on final, high rate of descent to get back on profile, late go-around call, engine strike, subsequent dual engine failure :shock:
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Re: Pakistan International PK8303 Crash

Unread post by HAAN » Sat May 23, 2020 2:07 pm

Update. Cant verify source but plausible!
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Re: Pakistan International PK8303 Crash

Unread post by Dragon » Sat May 23, 2020 3:56 pm

I haven’t watched or read everything, but I’ve seen enough to hazard a guess as to what might have happened here - note:speculation mode ON (if that is not your cup of tea, please don’t read it)

It seems to me the aircraft was very high on the approach (asking if comfortable with the approach), could be false glide slope but more likely just high on energy and crew behind aircraft (also possible localiser overshoot reading between the lines from the vector given). I am guessing to get the speed off they went straight from flaps 2 to 3 non standard without taking Gear intending to come back to it, but then with distraction of high speed went to full flap without gear, giving the aural warning we hear during the cleared to land radio transmission. If we add this with the belly scrape and Occam’s razor, the most likely outcome is that they were too stressed to hear the warning too rushed and behind the aircraft to do the landing checklist properly and landed gear up. It is however also possible that they subsequently put the gear down and lifted it prematurely in the go around.

If they landed gear up they did a go around and if I assume RAT was seen out during go around then the engine driven generators likely kicked offline and this would extend the RAT automatically(alternative is that the RAT deployed automatically on 2nd eng failure much later).

Alternatively If they got the gear down and landed hot and also rushed, spoilers may not have been armed and with high speed it is a scenario that they floated deep and bounced and then botched a go around into a scrape.

I think the engines are clearly damaged at this stage but not failed as they are able to drag an aircraft off its bum into the sky and climb it up to approximately 2000ft quite quickly. They then entered a circuit to the left. No matter who was flying before, the Capt would be flying at this stage because when the RAT was popping (in early RAT scenario) only the Capt side had instruments and he would have taken control (once turning you get some back- but initially you lose a lot of stuff)

It is my belief based on the vertical profile and circumstantial evidence that they climbed up to 2000ft on 2 engines. Then one of 3 things happened and I sincerely hope the holes in the cheese didn’t line up for the last to occur although I have to mention it as a possibility. The first is that the damage in the engines caught up with them and caused them to fail one after leveling off and one just before abeam upwind threshold.

The second scenario is that there were either just fire indications or real fires that they had to deal with, the first fire being easy to shut down but the second needing some thought if it was real which brings us to the last scenario.

The last scenario that sends shivers down my spine is that a stressed crew, already behind the aircraft, Capt handflying(no autopilot in this elec config) and not paying attention, allowed an inexperienced(I’m guessing?) FO to complete the ECAM checklist without thinking, where if Mr Airbus decided there was a fire warning for example on each engine, it would command you to shut down each engine basically one after the other I think (not a scenario we usually look at or think about). A whole lot of things would have to go wrong for this scenario to take place, but it is a possibility, the probability depending on the experience and training of the crew, something I have no knowledge on. If this was the scenario it is interesting to note that although this is never discussed I have never seen in print and I would have to verify, I see no reason why pushing the fire handles back in would not restore fuel flow to the engines if there was time to recover them having realized the error- but I stand corrected.
Last edited by Dragon on Sat May 23, 2020 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pakistan International PK8303 Crash

Unread post by Chuck » Sat May 23, 2020 4:32 pm

People please note I have re-uploaded the ATC file in my previous post as one radio call was missing. ( :oops: ).
This call occurs at 0:48 in the file and after the go-around a cockpit 'ding' and an engine revving up can be heard in the background.

Apologies for any inconvenience.
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Re: Pakistan International PK8303 Crash

Unread post by Dragon » Sat May 23, 2020 4:51 pm

Romeo E.T. wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 2:52 pm
at 2;53 on the recording a "Continuous Repetitive Chime" can be heard can be heard in the background of the readback

That "Chime" is a RED warning, and not a caution
This is a Gear unsafe warning ie Simply put: no 3greens at a time when there should be.
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Re: Pakistan International PK8303 Crash

Unread post by Dragon » Sat May 23, 2020 5:09 pm

Triaan wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 3:38 pm
So as mentioned You get a RED warning @ 2:53

Is that the Engines or landing gear, could it be that the landing gear
was a problem that originated with the engines ? hydraulics ?
Was landing gear warning. In my opinion the engines proved that they worked after the go around by dragging the aircraft up to 2000ft. Also note for hydraulic systems that the gear was cleaned if you assume it was down (or is still up if that is your scenario) but that the flaps are definitely retracted after the go around.
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Re: Pakistan International PK8303 Crash

Unread post by ACE MAN » Sat May 23, 2020 5:33 pm

Dragon wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 4:51 pm
Romeo E.T. wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 2:52 pm
at 2;53 on the recording a "Continuous Repetitive Chime" can be heard can be heard in the background of the readback

That "Chime" is a RED warning, and not a caution
This is a Gear unsafe warning ie Simply put: no 3greens at a time when there should be.
Could also be a flap over speed. I have not read everything, but a false glide slope is very possible , but to check the RoD is not rocket science and the hint from ATC ‘ turn Left HDG180’ is a tell tale that ATC knew the aircraft needed to be repositioned, but lacked assertiveness. To me that is all part of the Swiss cheese and will boil down to pilot error. ( my very early opinion and speculation).
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Re: Pakistan International PK8303 Crash

Unread post by Triaan » Sat May 23, 2020 5:36 pm

Haan's attachment and Dragons explanation makes the most sense to me if not exactly the case it should at least be close to what possibly happened.

I see i posted near to Aceman (Of course Aceman's opinion definitely might be added to the mix of unfortunate circumstances)
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Re: Pakistan International PK8303 Crash

Unread post by Romeo E.T. » Sat May 23, 2020 5:56 pm

Not being an Airbus driver, thus not up to speed with the various modes and logic's

but

this quoted post on Pprune seems to give me an indication of how it transpirred
Originally Posted by Flava Saver View Post
“Possible” scenario, (as the Swiss cheese has happened before in a 320)

Aircraft is doing the slam dunk, trying to get down, Gear out, Flaps out-maybe not at Conf Full, or 3 because of the rushed approach, have realised well and truly unstable, called Go Around, in the heat of the moment, the PF has pushed the Thrust into MCT instead of TOGA. There is the increase in thrust and sound of the engines, and because of the repetition in Sim sessions, the PNF has called positive climb, even though they weren’t, due to the ‘go around mouth music’.... PF has then called for gear up. Gear is selected up, but the aircraft is still sinking towards the runway, with speed increasing.....and ‘maybe’... both engines have contacted the runway? They’ve realised, gone to TOGA and flown away. Then with some damage ECAM is lighting up with stuff, Rat is extended.
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