Rating, familiarisation or differences..?

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Mrb13676
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Re: Rating, familiarisation or differences..?

Unread post by Mrb13676 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:43 pm

I looked it up.

According to CATS 61.09.8 differences training is only required when changing to different manufacturers or adding systems
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Re: Rating, familiarisation or differences..?

Unread post by southside » Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:46 pm

The guy doesn't want to covert to a Concorde...its a C182. Hardly a complex, high performance aircraft. If he has experience on Cessnas and the the VP, a thorough briefing on the aircraft systems will suffice, IMHO. He can go out to the GF with a safety pilot and practice forced landings ect too see the performance of it in that regard after he has been endorced. Really no big deal here...IF he is has experience with those systems.
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Re: Rating, familiarisation or differences..?

Unread post by Romeo E.T. » Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:55 pm

Mrb13676 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:36 pm

If i fly with an instructor to keep current my aircraft doesn’t need to be on an ATO. this to my mind is the same.
slight thread drift/hijack
Applicability

141.01.1 (1) This part applies to the approval and operation of organisations conducting—

(a)
aviation training;

(b)
temporary aviation training; and

(c)
aviation training conducted on behalf of a third party.

(2) This part does not apply in respect of—

(a)
training conducted for familiarisation purposes; and

(b)
training or instruction conducted in the interests of aviation safety: Provided that such training or instruction is not conducted for the issuing, renewal, reissuing, validation or revalidation of any licence, certificate or rating in terms of the regulations.
from the regulations
You are correct if the training is done for currency and "safety" purposes.
The test itself is not considered training either.
so to remain current yes, but if you are doing "training" to issue/re-issue/validate/re-validate etc, then the aircraft WILL have to be on the ATO
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Re: Rating, familiarisation or differences..?

Unread post by heisan » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:07 pm

Mrb13676 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:36 pm
The fact that we’re arguing about this means that the regulations are so poorly written that they are not fit for purpose.
The regs are quite explicit - only familiarisation training is required. Where they get rather vague and confusing is what happens if the instructor thinks you should do some flying as part of the training:
61.09.9 (1) Familiarisation training is required when converting to—
(a) an aircraft within a class rating which does not require differences training; or
(b) a variant of a type as specified in the list of aircraft types published by the Director on the Authority website.
(2) Familiarisation training consists of—
(a) theoretical knowledge instruction as prescribed in Document SA-CATS 61;
(b) flight training, only if deemed necessary by the instructor, taking into consideration—
(i) the experience level of the applicant; and
(ii) handling characteristics, performance characteristics and weight of the particular aircraft.
(3) Familiarisation flight training, if deemed necessary, may be carried out in an aircraft or in an FSTD approved for the purpose. Such flight training shall be conducted by an ATO or a foreign training organisation.
(4) Familiarisation training does not have to be conducted by an ATO if no flight training is involved.


While flight training has always been allowed as part of familiarisation training, the CAA recently added points (3) and (4) which muddy the waters.

Add that together with the fact that familiarisation training is explicitly excluded from Part 141, and suddenly you are required to do it through the ATO - but there are no enforceable regulations on how that training should be conducted...
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Re: Rating, familiarisation or differences..?

Unread post by paulw » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:09 pm

I personally will take "nrm"'s advise.

This was discussed in length in 2013. See post below.

What you also need to keep in mind if the aircraft is owned (even part owned) by the person needing the "training". Rules change then.

Also keep in mind what is required for insurance purposes.

There are always two things I keep in mind:
1. Safety and what is good for me and my family in time to come
2. What will the insurance do if I have a prang during training or 50 hours later if they go and check the logs and potential Student file at an ATO.
(Insurance normally should and will follow the guidance of the CAA so if your paperwork is in order as far as CAA is concerned, then you shouldn't have a problem, BUT sometimes the rules/laws are vague and then you depend on the person doing investigation mood of the day)

See post of mine below, I did very thorough checking then:
Disclaimer: Maybe some laws changed since then.

viewtopic.php?t=121542&start=15#p1337636
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Re: Rating, familiarisation or differences..?

Unread post by paulw » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:12 pm

heisan wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:07 pm


While flight training has always been allowed as part of familiarisation training, the CAA recently added points (3) and (4) which muddy the waters.

Do you know off hand when the points 3 and 4 were added?
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Re: Rating, familiarisation or differences..?

Unread post by heisan » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:25 pm

paulw wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:12 pm
heisan wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:07 pm


While flight training has always been allowed as part of familiarisation training, the CAA recently added points (3) and (4) which muddy the waters.

Do you know off hand when the points 3 and 4 were added?
Yikes! The years pass quickly. Looks like it was the 14th Ammendment in 2016.
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Re: Rating, familiarisation or differences..?

Unread post by KisGman » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:29 pm

Wow..!! Now I am even more confused.....

Let me give some background, I am a PPL holder with almost 200 hours, I have flown various other VP aircraft where the C172RG is one. The regulation was not clear if the C182 which I wish to "convert" to needed to be on an ATO or not. Just to add an aircraft onto an ATO nowadays can take anything from three to six months with the SA CAA.

I am not going to jump in the C182 after receiving a briefing and fly it solo, my intention is to fly with an instructor, do some circuits, go to the GF, do some upper airwork as well as emergencies, the ATO issue is really the question here.
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Re: Rating, familiarisation or differences..?

Unread post by paulw » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:35 pm

heisan wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:25 pm
paulw wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:12 pm
heisan wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:07 pm


While flight training has always been allowed as part of familiarisation training, the CAA recently added points (3) and (4) which muddy the waters.

Do you know off hand when the points 3 and 4 were added?
Yikes! The years pass quickly. Looks like it was the 14th Ammendment in 2016.
:D Time do fly more than I do ...Ok, thanks, so my post will be out dated then on point 4 at least.
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Re: Rating, familiarisation or differences..?

Unread post by Ruby1 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:06 am

From my point of view I did my conversion onto the 182 fresh from my ppl, where I did all my flying on a 172.

Not sure what the legalities were/are but I had to place the aircraft on an ATO. Granted I had no retract time or VP time.

From my point of view getting to know the VP system etc was the easy part. The 182 does have some flying characteristics which differ to the 172. Pitch control is lot heavier. The nose is heavy. Trim needs to be utilised extensively on landing.

It may seem unnecessary to go out with an instructor, especially if it is not a legal requirement, but if it were me I would go out with an instructor, feel out the stall, glide characteristics and then pound in a good session of circuits, before venturing out on my own.

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Re: Rating, familiarisation or differences..?

Unread post by coline » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:16 pm

When I bought an aircraft with VP and RG I phoned CAA to find out what endorsement they required and the answer was none. For my own comfort and any possible insurance issues, I hired an instructor to fly with for a couple of hours instruction and got him to endorse my log book to that effect. For my own peace of mind.

C
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Re: Rating, familiarisation or differences..?

Unread post by spokes » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:25 pm

Ruby1 said:
From my point of view getting to know the VP system etc was the easy part. The 182 does have some flying characteristics which differ to the 172. Pitch control is lot heavier. The nose is heavy. Trim needs to be utilised extensively on landing.👍


Flown all the Cessna singles. The difference in elevator weight between a C172, average. A C177, non excistent and a C182 heavy, is dangerous.
And the first time you experience the difference is the first time you flare it for landing.
Go and fly the thing with an experienced C182 pilot. Please.
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Re: Rating, familiarisation or differences..?

Unread post by KisGman » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:43 pm

KisGman wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:29 pm
Wow..!! Now I am even more confused.....

Let me give some background, I am a PPL holder with almost 200 hours, I have flown various other VP aircraft where the C172RG is one. The regulation was not clear if the C182 which I wish to "convert" to needed to be on an ATO or not. Just to add an aircraft onto an ATO nowadays can take anything from three to six months with the SA CAA.

I am not going to jump in the C182 after receiving a briefing and fly it solo, my intention is to fly with an instructor, do some circuits, go to the GF, do some upper airwork as well as emergencies, the ATO issue is really the question here.
As I said
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Re: Rating, familiarisation or differences..?

Unread post by Airlou » Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:02 am

coline wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:16 pm
When I bought an aircraft with VP and RG I phoned CAA to find out what endorsement they required and the answer was none. For my own comfort and any possible insurance issues, I hired an instructor to fly with for a couple of hours instruction and got him to endorse my log book to that effect. For my own peace of mind.

C
Good thinking (point), as I had being through insurance issues in the past, insurance companies may differ in their opinion towards loopholes in the GA regulation system. It good practice to find out your insurance company's view on what you need to undertake.
L

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