Cardinal near Piet Retief?

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Re: Cardinal near Piet Retief?

Unread post by richard C » Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:23 am

Volo wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:51 pm

Sure - I agree 1000 meters might be generous for landing but not for a take-off or a late go-round decision .
it seems everything was stacked against a successful go round .
For starters my google earth tells me that the threshold of the runway used is 100 ft lower than the end of the runway with the logs which are quite evident on Google ( perhaps they were also added few meters to clear).
When the pilot initiated a go round which was apparently after an initial touch down a good deal of that 1000 meters must have already been used up .
Three up with some fuel cant have helped
The cross wind and who knows maybe a bit of a tailwind component would further aggravate the situation and the straw that broke the camels back seems to be the misuse of the flaps .
On balance I still say a 1000 meter strip with less than favourable attributes is pushing it for many medium performance aircraft .
Hi Volo - are you sure about the 100 ft height difference ? That would make a 1:10 fall along the full length of the strip. That is a ramp, not a runway. Would be like the one in the Freestate I think, one way in, one way out, no go-around possible.

But if you are correct - then that may fully explain the circumstances here. Passenger pulls flaps to assist the landing (because go-around is NOT an option on a 1:10 airfield). Pilot freezes, neither committing to the landing nor to the go-around.

BTW, although it doesn't help performance, the C177 flies, lands and handles much better with someone heavy in the back. Requires much less yoke, and becomes much easier to get a controlled, smooth landing. On take-off she may run a bit, but will fly-off with less pull on the yoke.

I want to re-iterate, 1000m is generous. (LATER ADDITION:) Indeed, with a 1:10 slope, you could probably land the aircraft in 150 m !
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Re: Cardinal near Piet Retief?

Unread post by Lousha » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:35 am

Volo wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:51 pm
richard C wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:25 pm
Sorry, I disagree. You can land a cardinal in a very short distance, 1000 m is downright generous.

The crosswind is entirely up to your skills and practice, irrespective of the strip. But grass is far more forgiving than tar in a fresh cross.
..............................
Sure - I agree 1000 meters might be generous for landing but not for a take-off or a late go-round decision .
it seems everything was stacked against a successful go round .
For starters my google earth tells me that the threshold of the runway used is 100 ft lower than the end of the runway with the logs which are quite evident on Google ( perhaps they were also added few meters to clear).
When the pilot initiated a go round which was apparently after an initial touch down a good deal of that 1000 meters must have already been used up .
Three up with some fuel cant have helped
The cross wind and who knows maybe a bit of a tailwind component would further aggravate the situation and the straw that broke the camels back seems to be the misuse of the flaps .
On balance I still say a 1000 meter strip with less than favourable attributes is pushing it for many medium performance aircraft .
My opinion is that any length runway is generous for a go around - why you may ask? Simple - the need for a go around in most circumstances should be recognized early on, mostly before touch town and executed in a calm professional manner. I always teach my students to "fly her away", trying to instill an attitude that a go around is nothing more than a descent with some power and flaps followed by a transition into a full power climb. There is very little to do other than anticipate and counter the the nose up moment and trim the aircraft accordingly, then slowly retract the flaps to "lift flap reducing drag flap" Whilst doing this we need to play the speed vs rate of climb/descent game monitoring both.

During training, I often practice this "unbeknown to the inexperienced student" while doing climbing and descending, descending in an approach configuration and then moving into a full power climb, emphasizing the need for keeping the aircraft in balance while coaxing the speed by pitching the nose whilst retracting drag flap to minimize loss of height, then moving into a climb. This takes some practice as it is not a mechanical pitch the nose up to the climb attitude immediately, rather pitch the nose up, while monitoring airspeed and make adjustments to coax the aircraft into gaining some airspeed which will result in a climb.

If having touched town already, the go around is nothing more than a takeoff with the added benefit of already having the head start on some air speed, however the trick is directional control and retraction of drag flap. Again ALWAYS expect the nose up pitching moment due to the position of the trimmer. If practicing attitude flying and having been taught properly, again its a simple matter of assigning the correct nose attitude for the conditions which prevail and trimming off the control pressures whilst slowly correcting the aircraft configuration.

If taught from the word go to anticipate, anticipate, anticipate the reaction of the aircraft to the control and power changes, a go around should be a non event, as with most other flight exercises! Most runways are designed with a relatively clear climb path, so even a slow rate of climb due to a heavily loaded aircraft should pose no problem.
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Re: Cardinal near Piet Retief?

Unread post by 117 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:08 am

richard C wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:23 am
Volo wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:51 pm

Sure - I agree 1000 meters might be generous for landing but not for a take-off or a late go-round decision .
it seems everything was stacked against a successful go round .
For starters my google earth tells me that the threshold of the runway used is 100 ft lower than the end of the runway with the logs which are quite evident on Google ( perhaps they were also added few meters to clear).
When the pilot initiated a go round which was apparently after an initial touch down a good deal of that 1000 meters must have already been used up .
Three up with some fuel cant have helped
The cross wind and who knows maybe a bit of a tailwind component would further aggravate the situation and the straw that broke the camels back seems to be the misuse of the flaps .
On balance I still say a 1000 meter strip with less than favourable attributes is pushing it for many medium performance aircraft .
Hi Volo - are you sure about the 100 ft height difference ? That would make a 1:10 fall along the full length of the strip. That is a ramp, not a runway. Would be like the one in the Freestate I think, one way in, one way out, no go-around possible.

But if you are correct - then that may fully explain the circumstances here. Passenger pulls flaps to assist the landing (because go-around is NOT an option on a 1:10 airfield). Pilot freezes, neither committing to the landing nor to the go-around.

BTW, although it doesn't help performance, the C177 flies, lands and handles much better with someone heavy in the back. Requires much less yoke, and becomes much easier to get a controlled, smooth landing. On take-off she may run a bit, but will fly-off with less pull on the yoke.

I want to re-iterate, 1000m is generous. (LATER ADDITION:) Indeed, with a 1:10 slope, you could probably land the aircraft in 150 m !
100 FEET is equivalent to 30.48 meters.

Hardly a 1:10 slope

Semantics
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Re: Cardinal near Piet Retief?

Unread post by richard C » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:18 am

*facepalm*

:oops: :oops: :oops:

My error.

But still, on google earth it appears as if the slope is gentle, certainly not as much as 100 feet (equivalent to a 10 story building).

Besides, I am going on here well above my pay-grade. All I have in common with this event is that like the PIC in this instance, I converted straight from trainer onto the C177. I am not ashamed to admit that I struggled with it. Also, I am familiar with the aircraft and have landed it on a 1000m grass strip many times.

My neck is now securely wound in...
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Re: Cardinal near Piet Retief?

Unread post by HJK 414 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:37 am

richard C wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:18 am
*facepalm*

:oops: :oops: :oops:

My error.

But still, on google earth it appears as if the slope is gentle, certainly not as much as 100 feet (equivalent to a 10 story building).
..........

heheheheh....... and your major at Wits was ..... :mrgreen:

The Runway elevation (03 / 21) is 1180 mtr to 1204 mtrs over the total length of 1000 mtrs ....
That is 24 Meters slope over the entire runway (or 78 feet if you prefer)

Not that bad - yet it would always make 03 preferable for a landing.

JK
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Re: Cardinal near Piet Retief?

Unread post by Broadbandboer » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:12 pm

Hi.

I have some comments to make. I am by no means a very experienced pilot. I only have a ppl and I try to learn as much as possible every time I fly and from others. This forum has had a very positive influence on my flying and I have learnt a lot.

In my opinion it is very very important to find the right instructor. They are still out there. I am very grateful that I managed to complete my training in Witbank. I vividly remember coming in for a landing two up in a C-150. I was very, very out of shape. I had flaps on, was way to high and borderline slow. But I was determined to get it down. He let me battle with the plane for a good long time before he told me that this was not even close to a decent approach and that we must do a go around and try again. Disappointed and somewhat frustrated I gave full power and dumped the flaps already thinking about the next approach. The next few words that came out of his mouth is not repeatable here. The 150 sank through very very badly. That day I learnt the hard way that you only remove flaps when you have sufficient airspeed. Some days we sat in the hangar and did theory because the wind was not high or crosswind enough. That has helped me boat loads. And I can only appreciate now.

I flew into a very similar airstrip with my 182 with 19.1 PIC hours and 51.5 total time. My instructor flew over for a day and we spent 3 hours flying and familiarising with the C-182. I have since flown to El Mirador and other private strips. If you plan properly it is a non event. I am roughly at 200tt now.

Nobody should touch anything in a plane unless asked by the PIC. I have had my dad fly with me. He is type rated. And he adjusted the fuel mixture from time to time. I could see on the digital EGT monitor that the temps were fluctuating and couldn't understand why until I saw him do it. That was stopped immediately.

I am really glad that everyone made it out. Know your limits and stick to them. If there is something nagging and requires thinking... have a beer and come back tomorrow.

Nico
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Re: Cardinal near Piet Retief?

Unread post by jimdavis » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:34 pm

Broadbandboer wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:12 pm
Hi.

I have some comments to make. I am by no means a very experienced pilot. I only have a ppl and I try to learn as much as possible every time I fly and from others. This forum has had a very positive influence on my flying and I have learnt a lot.

In my opinion it is very very important to find the right instructor. They are still out there. I am very grateful that I managed to complete my training in Witbank. I vividly remember coming in for a landing two up in a C-150. I was very, very out of shape. I had flaps on, was way to high and borderline slow. But I was determined to get it down. He let me battle with the plane for a good long time before he told me that this was not even close to a decent approach and that we must do a go around and try again. Disappointed and somewhat frustrated I gave full power and dumped the flaps already thinking about the next approach. The next few words that came out of his mouth is not repeatable here. The 150 sank through very very badly. That day I learnt the hard way that you only remove flaps when you have sufficient airspeed. Some days we sat in the hangar and did theory because the wind was not high or crosswind enough. That has helped me boat loads. And I can only appreciate now.

I flew into a very similar airstrip with my 182 with 19.1 PIC hours and 51.5 total time. My instructor flew over for a day and we spent 3 hours flying and familiarising with the C-182. I have since flown to El Mirador and other private strips. If you plan properly it is a non event. I am roughly at 200tt now.

Nobody should touch anything in a plane unless asked by the PIC. I have had my dad fly with me. He is type rated. And he adjusted the fuel mixture from time to time. I could see on the digital EGT monitor that the temps were fluctuating and couldn't understand why until I saw him do it. That was stopped immediately.

I am really glad that everyone made it out. Know your limits and stick to them. If there is something nagging and requires thinking... have a beer and come back tomorrow.

Nico
Well spoken Nico. What a very sensible post. =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

Was it Tommy?

jim
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Re: Cardinal near Piet Retief?

Unread post by Mrb13676 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:06 pm

Add on to pax briefing....

“Behind the seat is a crash axe. If you touch anything on the panel or throttle quadrant I’ll hit you on the head with it.”
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Re: Cardinal near Piet Retief?

Unread post by Airlou » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:01 pm

Well I would guess now we can speculate who was in control of the aircraft or was it already determent....
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Re: Cardinal near Piet Retief?

Unread post by ace505 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:08 pm

Mrb13676 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:06 pm
Add on to pax briefing....

“Behind the seat is a crash axe. If you touch anything on the panel or throttle quadrant I’ll hit you on the head with it.”
We have an egress hammer in the cirrus used for the same purpose 8)
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Re: Cardinal near Piet Retief?

Unread post by Volo » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:29 pm

ace505 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:08 pm
Mrb13676 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:06 pm
Add on to pax briefing....

“Behind the seat is a crash axe. If you touch anything on the panel or throttle quadrant I’ll hit you on the head with it.”
We have an egress hammer in the cirrus used for the same purpose 8)
.......................
In the commercial aviation world they are getting close to even telling the pilots not to touch anything :lol:
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Re: Cardinal near Piet Retief?

Unread post by Broadbandboer » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:49 pm

jimdavis wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:34 pm
Broadbandboer wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:12 pm
Hi.

I have some comments to make. I am by no means a very experienced pilot. I only have a ppl and I try to learn as much as possible every time I fly and from others. This forum has had a very positive influence on my flying and I have learnt a lot.

In my opinion it is very very important to find the right instructor. They are still out there. I am very grateful that I managed to complete my training in Witbank. I vividly remember coming in for a landing two up in a C-150. I was very, very out of shape. I had flaps on, was way to high and borderline slow. But I was determined to get it down. He let me battle with the plane for a good long time before he told me that this was not even close to a decent approach and that we must do a go around and try again. Disappointed and somewhat frustrated I gave full power and dumped the flaps already thinking about the next approach. The next few words that came out of his mouth is not repeatable here. The 150 sank through very very badly. That day I learnt the hard way that you only remove flaps when you have sufficient airspeed. Some days we sat in the hangar and did theory because the wind was not high or crosswind enough. That has helped me boat loads. And I can only appreciate now.

I flew into a very similar airstrip with my 182 with 19.1 PIC hours and 51.5 total time. My instructor flew over for a day and we spent 3 hours flying and familiarising with the C-182. I have since flown to El Mirador and other private strips. If you plan properly it is a non event. I am roughly at 200tt now.

Nobody should touch anything in a plane unless asked by the PIC. I have had my dad fly with me. He is type rated. And he adjusted the fuel mixture from time to time. I could see on the digital EGT monitor that the temps were fluctuating and couldn't understand why until I saw him do it. That was stopped immediately.

I am really glad that everyone made it out. Know your limits and stick to them. If there is something nagging and requires thinking... have a beer and come back tomorrow.

Nico
Well spoken Nico. What a very sensible post. =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

Was it Tommy?

jim
Thank you Uncle Jim.

Yes it was. Oom Tommy and Eric run a tight ship.

One more thing that I thought of that is worth a mention is density altitude. Our hangar sits @ 5180ft. I have had DA as high as 8900ft. The plane you know and trust behaves very differently then.

Nico

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Re: Cardinal near Piet Retief?

Unread post by jimdavis » Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:29 pm

Broadbandboer wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:12 pm
Hi.

In my opinion it is very very important to find the right instructor. They are still out there.

Nico
I couldn't agree with you more - that is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING when you want to learn to fly.

You were lucky to find Tommy van der Woude - he is an excellent instructor.

jim
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Re: Cardinal near Piet Retief?

Unread post by Cornell Blok » Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:10 am

That's the problem with 2 pilots flying rule is don't touch anything unless it was briefed on.
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Re: Cardinal near Piet Retief?

Unread post by Kiewiet Vlok » Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:12 pm

Funny how perspective differs My wife and me she 600 H me 1600+ share in intense moments chores on the plaine. True everyone fully briefed on the plan and things that can go wrong, and everyone knows who is flying primary and take the quick decisions. The only time she sneaks the power fully in
on my leg of flying was in a race and a lance air passing us haha

so I am not so tense on the 2 pilot thing

I move in maybe a different milieu than other highly train and experience people here on avcom but pilots that killed themselves that I have knowed well were not bad training it was all attitude that got them killed
In fact the 6 that I can recall of my head is all attitude that killed them it is actually uncunning burden to bear !!! . How do you speak to someone that does nothing wrong ?? yet ,but show litle tell tailes .
I always thought they were better pilots than me I am just the scared old one that plan something new a hundred times over and practise for it , but as years go on and they get fewer it becomes difficult to shud up !!
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