ZS - PME Accident Wattville - 3 Deceased RIP

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Re: ZS - PME Accident Wattville - 3 Deceased RIP

Unread post by puddlejumper » Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:41 pm

7152 wrote:What if it was not an EFATO at all, Jim? I was once doing the renewal of a long expired PPL in a PA 28-180 and the task requested by the instructor was a short take-off. Flaps were appropriately set and the 180 accelerated away satisfactorily. Being keen to show my mettle I started to rotate a little early and had the aircraft lift off about two or three mph before the recommended airspeed. Big mistake. No further acceleration happened and no height was gained. In other words I was'flying' on ground effect and the outer half of my wings. As I later figured it wash-out had the inner section of my wings in a stalled condition, with the drag preventing any increase in speed. With the end of the runway rapidly approaching it was too late to cut the throttle and flop back onto the ground. Against all instinct the only option was to give forward yoke with just three or four feet below my wheels. Hard to do, but a swift notching forward got the tail up and the wings fully flying, speed then built up and we climbed away normally.

I don't know if the Cherokee Six is subject to the same conditions, but if it is and Karl used up the whole runway getting the aircraft flying, concentrating on the starboard turn as usual in taking off from that runway, but now at an unnaturally low level and at the same time concentrating on getting to a safe altitude, is it not possible that he overlooked the very tall lightpole?
For this theory you need actual facts: aircraft w&b , actual weather conditions(wind dir and spd, temp), airfield info and then look at the performance section in the poh, if you manage to get all that info = answer.
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Re: ZS - PME Accident Wattville - 3 Deceased RIP

Unread post by Spoke Eagle » Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:00 pm

Maybe we don't practise them enough. It is a very short time between WTF and running out of airspeed, getting a glide set up and finding a spot ahead. We must also remember that a GA aircraft needs only 15 meters of constant deceleration for you to stay alive at normal stall speed. I remember my first instructor pulling the throttle at the most rediculous times, either approach or take-off and pointing me towards gaps between trees or through fences etc and not only wide open areas. As long as you get the thing on the deck at the slowest speed. What happens after that is Grace, life, luck, fate, what ever you want to call it.
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Re: ZS - PME Accident Wattville - 3 Deceased RIP

Unread post by HJK 414 » Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:10 pm

Spoke Eagle wrote:Maybe we don't practise them enough. It is a very short time between WTF and running out of airspeed, getting a glide set up and finding a spot ahead. We must also remember that a GA aircraft needs only 15 meters of constant deceleration for you to stay alive at normal stall speed. I remember my first instructor pulling the throttle at the most rediculous times, either approach or take-off and pointing me towards gaps between trees or through fences etc and not only wide open areas. As long as you get the thing on the deck at the slowest speed. What happens after that is Grace, life, luck, fate, what ever you want to call it.


I agree, we do not practise enough ........ I am sure most of us will waste valuable time between WTF and really organizing a glide to max range and sort out landing options. I think it is nature of the beast to "try and sort it" - especially when you are being blindsided by events...... I gather that the Pilot was experienced - yet that could also lead to a mindset of "I can quickly fix this" and end up loosing valuable time .........

I doubt whether having "hours" have anything to do with it ..... the Asiana Captain that managed to crash the 777 in San Francisco had almost 10.000 hours - but afterwards it was found that he had never done an approach without his autopilot and had hand-flown the aircraft less than 100 hours / in 10.000 !! ......he spent way too long thinking about it and wondering whether he could "sort" it....

Perhaps we should all spend more time training EFATO's /A-Symmetric flying etc etc .....

JK
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Re: ZS - PME Accident Wattville - 3 Deceased RIP

Unread post by Wayne Boonzaier » Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:24 pm

Spoke Eagle wrote:Maybe we don't practise them enough. It is a very short time between WTF and running out of airspeed, getting a glide set up and finding a spot ahead. We must also remember that a GA aircraft needs only 15 meters of constant deceleration for you to stay alive at normal stall speed. I remember my first instructor pulling the throttle at the most rediculous times, either approach or take-off and pointing me towards gaps between trees or through fences etc and not only wide open areas. As long as you get the thing on the deck at the slowest speed. What happens after that is Grace, life, luck, fate, what ever you want to call it.
How does one practice a forced landing into a built up area pray tell ?
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Re: ZS - PME Accident Wattville - 3 Deceased RIP

Unread post by jimdavis » Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:38 pm

Of course you must practice EFATO often. But remember that the real thing probably will never happen if your maintenance is good.

The only time I had an EFATO in a single was after I had performed my own, legal, maintenance, which was not up to standard.

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Re: ZS - PME Accident Wattville - 3 Deceased RIP

Unread post by apollo11 » Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Ruling out potential maintenance issue, fuel contamination etc...one often hears via hangar talk check rides etc.. never fiddle with anything related to engine until at safe height for a forced lob.

Be it adjusting manifold and or pitch/mixture with a vp c/s or simply revs on a fixed pitch apparently the thinking goes this is most likely when an engine failure will occur during a pitch or power change after takeoff.

The theory is related to inertia changes and thus forces on engine components at this critical phase of flight.

One instructor I flew with said one can make changes but just super smoothly, even small changes done rapidly could invite trouble.

What are your thoughts on this Jim?
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Re: ZS - PME Accident Wattville - 3 Deceased RIP

Unread post by jimdavis » Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:04 pm

I agree with you on both counts, Perry.

Don't fiddle with anything until you are sure of a forced landing field. And when you do fiddle - always do it smoothly.

One of the first things the RAF taught me, when I was 17, is that good engine handling is the hallmark of a good pilot.

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Re: ZS - PME Accident Wattville - 3 Deceased RIP

Unread post by mnmodels » Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:30 am

Would like to have stats on engine failures. But knowing engines and the relative simplicity of our air cooled engines...my guess that a catastrophic failure due to gear , conrod , crank failure is zero if all maintenance set schedules were met.

I think most failures are due to fuel.. followed by oil. And the latter will give you warnings before something will happen.

If you only fly the same aerie every weekend like driving your same car...you will spot problems long before they become problems. And this is only true if correct maintenance was done from start.

fly safe this weekend...
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Re: ZS - PME Accident Wattville - 3 Deceased RIP

Unread post by apollo11 » Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:01 am

jimdavis wrote:I agree with you on both counts, Perry.

Don't fiddle with anything until you are sure of a forced landing field. And when you do fiddle - always do it smoothly.

One of the first things the RAF taught me, when I was 17, is that good engine handling is the hallmark of a good pilot.

Jim
Hi Jim yes quite so... totally agree.
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Re: ZS - PME Accident Wattville - 3 Deceased RIP

Unread post by wysiwyg » Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:21 am

Wayne Boonzaier wrote:
Spoke Eagle wrote:Maybe we don't practise them enough. It is a very short time between WTF and running out of airspeed, getting a glide set up and finding a spot ahead. We must also remember that a GA aircraft needs only 15 meters of constant deceleration for you to stay alive at normal stall speed. I remember my first instructor pulling the throttle at the most rediculous times, either approach or take-off and pointing me towards gaps between trees or through fences etc and not only wide open areas. As long as you get the thing on the deck at the slowest speed. What happens after that is Grace, life, luck, fate, what ever you want to call it.
How does one practice a forced landing into a built up area pray tell ?
In farming areas that have varying patches of trees. The trees simulate buildings etc. get down low in T/O config and speed, take power, raise the nose, at a couple of hundred smoothly reduce power, go through the procedures whilst selecting a field between the trees .......... But be careful of wind shear etc. observe the surface of dams for wind strength and direction from a safe height first.
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Re: ZS - PME Accident Wattville - 3 Deceased RIP

Unread post by Spoke Eagle » Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:00 am

Hi Wayne, next time you take-off at somewhere with a long runway close the throttle at 100 feet and try to get back on the runway at a specific point. Thats how I do it.
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Re: ZS - PME Accident Wattville - 3 Deceased RIP

Unread post by Kiewiet Vlok » Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:41 pm

Maybe we don't practise them enough."""

Let's play Devils advocate. I think more people are killed with instructer or self fidling with enjin on dangerous fase of flight than are actualy killed in a real efato? ( espesialy twins) and that is real tragic!! ( man slauther)



i will go through my passenger breafing for my self before i role, but their is always that split second / hihgt were i am real un easy that an enjin failure "now "" i am "F" ( nose hard forward ,fly the plaine and take my chances)

Krugersdorp if i was in a hurry forget my own briefing and do not slowly turn into the valley the moment the wheels lift,in the Mooney on a hot day that feeling can last for eternity or so it feels

this accident shook me a bit , nothing in my mind i can work out to do different,and it happen to a pilot better than me " The best i can come up for my self is plan ahead, go through your briefings and dont freese. ( not much of a plan)

fate is the hunter"
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Re: ZS - PME Accident Wattville - 3 Deceased RIP

Unread post by Kiewiet Vlok » Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:31 pm

some one ask the rate of enjin failures here is a thumbsuck? from Australia ""According to CASA, xxxxxxxx engines had 2-3 failures every 10,000 hours, when the US National Transport Safety Board had established an acceptable level of one every 10,000 hours.
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Re: ZS - PME Accident Wattville - 3 Deceased RIP

Unread post by R90-Flyer » Fri May 25, 2018 11:49 am

The final SACAA accident report is now available...
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Re: ZS - PME Accident Wattville - 3 Deceased RIP

Unread post by Wingnutter » Fri May 25, 2018 12:48 pm

Second sentence, first of a multitude of errors:

"According to eyewitnesses at the Wattville township, the aircraft was flying very low over the township and became and It appeared that the aircraft was struggling to climb to normal height."

Why oh why can't the CAA get a competent English speaker to proofread these reports before releasing them?
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.

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