Twin down in Glen Austin Midrand

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happyskipper
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Re: Twin down in Glen Austin Midrand

Unread post by happyskipper » Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:05 pm

I am certainly going to invest in a lightweight fire resistant suit for my [PPL] flying.

I would suggest that this thread either be split, or combined with this one: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=187661

Any of my "peers" who laughs at me wearing a life-saving suit or overall is obviously not a peer, in my eyes, and can take a long walk off a short pier. I urge anyone who values their and their passenger's lives, to make an effort to get themselves properly kitted out.

Cost? What cost a life?
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Re: Twin down in Glen Austin Midrand

Unread post by Flyman » Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:18 pm

Gents.
I knew the instructor David Mathewson , a very competent pilot and instructor. Dave RIP

The clothing helps yes. In a fire like that the scorching to the lungs would be very severe.
PRECHECK'S !!!!!!
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Re: Twin down in Glen Austin Midrand

Unread post by jimdavis » Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:19 pm

ohitsRo wrote:@Jim

43 use the blue polyester ones these days but not compulsory any more because it doesnt look 'cool'. perhaps a blessing in disguise seeing as they cover more of your body than the white shirt and pants. Orange fire suits would have been nice back when I was there.
I am absolutely appalled :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

What the hell are they thinking?

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Re: Twin down in Glen Austin Midrand

Unread post by Horace Blok » Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:53 pm

Backmarker wrote:I raced off-road motorcycles, and boats. We always dressed for the crash. Even when on leisure rides. I can tell you that my helmet, neckbrace and other gear not only saved me money on medical bills, but saved my life more than once. It was deemed as idiotic NOT to wear "All The Gear All The Time".

Surprisingly this is the common attitude in the motorcycling fraternity ( associated with testosterone fueled boys and men that see risk taking as a weekend hobby)

Now general aviation, which is a regulated, professionalized industry that has safety as a priority, people are too cool to wear the gear?
I endorse your thought process completely.

Starlites crews and students all wear overalls. And no one bats an eyelid. I think more of their crews, not less.

In the SAAF, at Dunnottar as students, we wore dayglo overalls and the instructor grey overalls. Its just the way it was and it was "normal". And then we wore nappa flying gloves, and the correct socks with flying boots, with a survival knife and a small survival kit in the front leg pocket. And we also had pencil flares in the arm pocket. And WE DIDN'T WEAR RAYBANS for if there was a bird strike, Laurie Kay demonstrated to us that they were the worst of the worst eyewear if we ever collided with a large feathered friend. They splintered - the best eyewear for protection from glare and a bird strike were our perspex visors. And I know of friends here who fly NTCA aircraft with a "bone dome" (and a visor??) and I think they have it right. The eyewear lenses of today are no doubt plastic??

With this as background, we became so accustomed to doing the right things right, that if we didn't follow airmanship and safety SOP's - we were assured of a one sided interview.

Its OK to make mistakes and also be uninformed but not to learn from this lousy accident, well that would be a pity.
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Re: Twin down in Glen Austin Midrand

Unread post by Alan Robertson » Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:50 pm

There seems to be little doubt then that there is insufficient focus on wearing appropriate safety gear and I have learnt a lot from this (tragic) thread and the many positive views: from fire retardant clothing (specifically flight suits), to shoes, socks, and even eyewear.

I've always maintained that Avcom has been my 'hangar talk' and I've spent many hours sifting through threads and discussions over the last 10 years, and thanks to the vast store of experience generously shared, I have been a safer, better pilot. And this tragic thread has been no different - my eyes have been opened wide.

Whilst I have respect for the views that flight training is one of the safest phases in one's flying career, it would be hard to sell to the families of the 3 deceased that, given a chance to turn the clock back, they wouldn't have pushed harder to have their loved ones wear proper safety gear. And of course that is the pressure that my son is now getting from me.

In fact even if one life is saved per year it would seem like something worthwhile to consider.

And whilst I may be a private flyer myself (albeit a CPL), I am going to address my own flying wardrobe to ensure I give myself the best chance of surviving a fire whilst still being mindful of the low exposure risk given the type of flying and hours I do. Basically, I may not fly in a Nomex flight suit, but I am going to push for my son to.

So what is it we can do as a community to make a difference out of this tragedy? Firstly, put protective gear into one's flight planning along with the weather, route, etc., - even if it means you decide not to wear it, at least think about it. Secondly, if you run a flight school or commercial operation, think seriously about doing what Starlite, the military, and HEMS operations do and consider making it mandatory for your crew, instructors, and students to wear the appropriate safety gear. It should be the new cool.

If this results in one life saved per annum there is not just a feel good factor, but a tangible financial saving (however indirect) to the entire aviation industry. How? Well consider that most adults have (or should) life cover either on an individual or group basis. The costs of this cover are actuarially calculated based on the claims experience of the group of lives. Actuaries (Virg on Avcom is one of SA's top actuaries and may wish to comment) are smart enough to ring fence homogeneous groups and, as mentioned earlier, calculate the future premiums based on the actual claims experience. So a life saved is a claim saved, and a reduction in premiums going forward for the group, and consequently all the individuals in it. A cost reduction which can be allocated to a safety gear budget - and the cycle improves. Think what Discovery has achieved with Vitality and incentivising people to be healthier: they claim less and everyone benefits. It's (no longer) rocket science.

For my part I am going to approach the risk managers' forum (made up of representatives of the major life insurers) to consider introducing a discount to institutions and individuals who commit to wearing appropriate safety gear based on the type of flying operations they are doing. This can't be verified but can easily be underwritten at claim stage if necessary, much like completing a smoker's declaration and enjoying a lower life rate. You can lie about it, but when your family claim after your death and it is obvious you were a smoker (or wearing your 70's polyester suit in this case), the insurer will either repudiate or reduce the claim.

The discount would be modest because it would have to take into account how many of the lives insured are expected to die in the next 12 months, and of those how many will end up surviving where the wearing the safety gear can be attributed to this. But there are subjective factors that the insurers would take into account. For instance, the act of wearing safety gear may translate into say a 2% premium discount, but what they would also consider is the general safety culture that would be heightened as a result.

That's what I am going to do.
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Re: Twin down in Glen Austin Midrand

Unread post by paulw » Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:25 pm

roadrunner wrote:Must agree with what Alan said.I see airwear .co.za has nice flight suits under R2000-00.Different colours etc very nice and safe.
Just check whether cotton or fire resistant.

I have one of these: http://www.gibson-barnes.com/prod-29491 ... -Suit.html
and two of these but they are a bit to hot to wear in SA conditions, great for over water flying: https://www.mustangsurvival.com/militar ... country=25


And gloves like these: http://www.gibson-barnes.com/prod-29396 ... loves.html
Also another much thicker glove but again for cold conditions.
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They have a book on how to take my money away? When did this happen......
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Re: Twin down in Glen Austin Midrand

Unread post by paulw » Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:51 pm

.
Don't believe what I post, research what I post....
They have a book on how to take my money away? When did this happen......
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Re: Twin down in Glen Austin Midrand

Unread post by jimdavis » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:28 pm

Alan Robertson wrote:Whilst I have respect for the views that flight training is one of the safest phases in one's flying career, it would be hard to sell to the families of the 3 deceased that, given a chance to turn the clock back, they wouldn't have pushed harder to have their loved ones wear proper safety gear. And of course that is the pressure that my son is now getting from me.
I am with you 100% Alan. But I didn't express a view on flying training in general. I quoted STATS on AB INITIO training - not post PPL training. There is a massive difference. :D

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Re: Twin down in Glen Austin Midrand

Unread post by SandPiper » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:34 am

Forty years ago it was ok not to wear seatbelts while driving a car. Today it is not ok.

Same with riding a bicycle, today we wear helmets, those days we did not.

Forty years ago we did not wear Nomex suites when flying a Cherokee 140, today maybe we should.

Times have changed, we must adapt.
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Re: Twin down in Glen Austin Midrand

Unread post by Koos Strauss » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:25 pm

roadrunner wrote:Must agree with what Alan said.I see airwear .co.za has nice flight suits under R2000-00.Different colours etc very nice and safe.
..You mean less than for a pair of shades....
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Re: Twin down in Glen Austin Midrand

Unread post by Fransw » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:50 pm

Koos Strauss wrote:
roadrunner wrote:Must agree with what Alan said.I see airwear .co.za has nice flight suits under R2000-00.Different colours etc very nice and safe.
..You mean less than for a pair of shades....
Yes, good price. But I don't think its Nomex, maybe only chemical treated cotton..

We pay anything from R1000 - R10 000 per hour to fly. To spend ±R5000 on a good suit is nothing! Even R10 000 for a good suit s still worth it..
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Re: Twin down in Glen Austin Midrand

Unread post by Bearcat » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:01 pm

This is a pic of a well known flight instructor that was doing a renewal on a Jabi, who has himself been involved in a crash before
Image
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Re: Twin down in Glen Austin Midrand

Unread post by Fransw » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:03 pm

Cool! 8)
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Re: Twin down in Glen Austin Midrand

Unread post by roadrunner » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:14 pm

On a lighter note i think im going to hit the treadmill to get the beer or daddy boep away if we all are going to wear flight suits i do beleive we should its safer and let us all learn from this accident it can happen to any of us.Safe flying to us all!!!!
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Re: Twin down in Glen Austin Midrand

Unread post by dany » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:22 pm

We discussed this issue today and once our purchaser is back, will task him to investigate the possibility to bring a whole line of Fire Retardant clothing in for resale other then our own supplies. I think we buy from a supplier that represent three or four diffrent brands. These clothing is high quality, and vary from what can be comfortably work in a corporate/office enviroment/charter pilot to bushwear for men and woman.Comfortable and light weight. If you do not look at the lable,you would think it is normal clothing you wear.
As with some overseas contracts we work on, it is law to wear FR clothing on site. No FR clothing, no work.
As Airwear locally make some of the best flight suits, we will skip that line. Unfortunately, quality FR clothing is not cheap and a set(class 2 ), from long sleeve T-shirt, to shirt with double pockets, long work pants is around R3000.00 if you buy single. Bulk reduce that price by around 25 %. We tried the Chinese versions we could find, fairly good quality material, bad workmanship on seams. Easy come loose if something hook and do not last in a auto washing machine.

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