Radial Rocket down at Bara

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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by richard C » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:30 pm

savas wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:19 pm
when I watched the Maiden Flight video, I could not help thinking to myself that choosing to land back at FAKR, was not such a sensible thing to do, especially considering they had some flight engine/prop issue to deal with. either Plan A, was to land elsewhere or at least a Plan B in the event that it was needed.
proper planning should have taken, the landing elsewhere, at least until 10/15 hrs have been done, as FAKR is not the greatest runway on any day, never mind a hot-ship like this, as after all this was not your typical RV8 maiden.

can you imagine, that this incident, that has now occurred after 3 hrs, was back at FAKR.
Although hind-sight clearly indicates that it would have been prudent to fly off and land elsewhere, let's consider two things:

1. He did not crash at FAKR. The conditions were mild, and he no doubt had his hands full with the engine issues, but he got it down safely, if not elegantly.
2. The owner is there with his family, who have missed him for the last couple of years, the build team, his friends, his curious bank manager and so on and so on. It was a benign day and who would not have wanted to be there to witness the first flight, take-off and landing - there was a lot of time, effort, money and dreams invested by a lot of people.
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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by kudu177 » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:03 pm

Cornell Blok wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:34 am
Wow :shock: Looks like quite a handful.
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Unread post by fll » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:47 pm

Lots of people know what to do , few people do something, truly sorry to hear about our misfortune, wishing you strength for " take 2 "
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Re: 7

Unread post by Mike Wissing » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:48 am

fll wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:47 pm
Lots of people know what to do , few people do something, truly sorry to hear about our misfortune, wishing you strength for " take 2 "
Sorry man, I have no idea what you just wrote 😉
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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by Frank Persson » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:06 am

Tail wheel failure is being suggested. Happened to the late Noel Otten in his Christian Eagle...
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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by Wildcat_004 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:21 am

Looking at this thread, there is one very glaring thing which is so wrong. There were engine related issues prior to the first flight and after the first flight. Getting airborne knowingly is extremely bad airmanship. Then looking further, it’s very clear that there is a massive problem when becoming a test pilot. It’s very easy to get it from the CAA. In the SA Air Force there are two types of test pilots. One is a MTP.....which you do a thorough course to do Maintenance Test Pilot work and then the full test pilots course at the Empire Test Pilots school in the UK or the one in the USA. There is also one in France which Bob Masson (RIP) did but had to master the Frence language as it was in their mothe tongue. The full test pilots course is no joke. It’s a year long course. Des Barker also did the full course. That allows you to test fly basically anything. MTP is as said.....after major service or repairs.....! The qualifications of test pilots in GA seems a bit shaky. Especially when doing an initial brand new test flight. There are quite a few suitably qualified test pilots around to do just this. Just my 2cents worth......
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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by AEH » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:15 pm

Hi Wildcat. Your statements are mostly correct and worthy of debate. The problem is not everyone has the benefit of a R16M education paid for by taxpayers. The Radial Rocket is a hot ship but does not present any aerodynamic uncertainties. Being an ex SAAF test pilot will not guarantee the next landing will be concluded safely. The pilot was very capable and I believe it was his 5 landing where for reasons unexplainable by his own very candid assessment, (private conversations with owner and pilot) it suddenly veered off and he was unable to correct it before it encountered the ditch. He had no problems whatsoever before that - all issues identified by the first test pilot having been fully resolved.

In summary it is my opinion that another pilot would have experienced the same issues. Until we establish the cause it remains speculation. Had it been groundlooped on the first landing the hypothesis is strong but not the fifth.

The pilot is traumatised by the event.

I flew with another pilot on a cross country to fetch another aircraft. He was flying. As the wheels touched the relatively docile aircraft darted off near 90 degrees to the runway. The speed of the departure was surprising as waa its occurrence. There was no wind. Luckily no damage occurred other than his confidence. We checked for flat tyres, locked brakes, seized wheel bearings, misaligned tailwheel and the like and drew blanks. I knew he did not have his feet on the brakes as I was an eye witness. And he was a very capable competent well above average pilot.
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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by jimdavis » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:48 pm

AEH wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:15 pm
I flew with another pilot on a cross country to fetch another aircraft. He was flying. As the wheels touched the relatively docile aircraft darted off near 90 degrees to the runway. The speed of the departure was surprising as waa its occurrence. There was no wind. Luckily no damage occurred other than his confidence. We checked for flat tyres, locked brakes, seized wheel bearings, misaligned tailwheel and the like and drew blanks. I knew he did not have his feet on the brakes as I was an eye witness. And he was a very capable competent well above average pilot.
Hi Alan. I am not sure where you are going with this story. Was it a mechanical failure, a pilot error, or some other definable cause? I really don't believe in mysterious inexplicable occurrences.

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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by AEH » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:50 am

Hi Jim. When we fail to identify any definite cause we take the easy option of blaming the pilot particularly if they are dead. I am raising awareness that just because we fail to find a definitive cause we must not assume pilot error.

Accident investigation is the only discipline that I know of that brings together every other science. The initial focus is on WHAT occurred but future accident prevention needs to establish the much harder element of WHY. Sometimes we just do not have the right answers.
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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by jimdavis » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:13 am

AEH wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:50 am
Hi Jim. When we fail to identify any definite cause we take the easy option of blaming the pilot particularly if they are dead. I am raising awareness that just because we fail to find a definitive cause we must not assume pilot error.

Accident investigation is the only discipline that I know of that brings together every other science. The initial focus is on WHAT occurred but future accident prevention needs to establish the much harder element of WHY. Sometimes we just do not have the right answers.
I am with you Alan, but still somewhat perplexed. You say you couldn't find a mechanical fault, but you also strongly defend the pilot. Surely one of them must have caused this violent departure.

If you inspected the aircraft carefully and found no fault, presumably you flew it again. One can only conclude that you believe the aircraft was not at fault.

I am not trying to butt heads Alan, I am trying to understand what happened.

It's the same as the Rocket. It seems the mechanical problems were fixed, and that the aircraft was flown by an exceptional pilot - but that landing tells me that both these claims can't be right. Or perhaps he is indeed an exceptional pilot, but but he made mistakes that day - as we all do.

jim
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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by homebuilt » Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:24 pm

Lets not get confused here. As I understand it, the landing on the video was of the initial test flight and not of the current accident landing so it may not have looked like that at all. The latest landing (no 5 I believe) may have been perfect without any bounce but the aircraft still departed the runway thereafter. That is the way I understand it anyway.
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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by Multirotordronepilot » Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:37 pm

AEH wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:15 pm
Hi Wildcat. Your statements are mostly correct and worthy of debate. The problem is not everyone has the benefit of a R16M education paid for by taxpayers. The Radial Rocket is a hot ship but does not present any aerodynamic uncertainties. Being an ex SAAF test pilot will not guarantee the next landing will be concluded safely. The pilot was very capable and I believe it was his 5 landing where for reasons unexplainable by his own very candid assessment, (private conversations with owner and pilot) it suddenly veered off and he was unable to correct it before it encountered the ditch. He had no problems whatsoever before that - all issues identified by the first test pilot having been fully resolved.

In summary it is my opinion that another pilot would have experienced the same issues. Until we establish the cause it remains speculation. Had it been groundlooped on the first landing the hypothesis is strong but not the fifth.

The pilot is traumatised by the event.

I flew with another pilot on a cross country to fetch another aircraft. He was flying. As the wheels touched the relatively docile aircraft darted off near 90 degrees to the runway. The speed of the departure was surprising as waa its occurrence. There was no wind. Luckily no damage occurred other than his confidence. We checked for flat tyres, locked brakes, seized wheel bearings, misaligned tailwheel and the like and drew blanks. I knew he did not have his feet on the brakes as I was an eye witness. And he was a very capable competent well above average pilot.
Somewhat unfair for you to use WC career in that light, but I'm fairly certain its one of those pieces which reads 180deg from what its intentions are. Hope that is the case.

Its not the funded amount which identified or had any part in the accesment its the feeling multitude of parameters monitored as seen through that video, its instinct.

Anyhow the real reason for the reply was to indicate as many other have that firstly this is not the incident on video and 2nd as I believe it is not even the same PIC. Therefor WC comments as well as mine or solely based on the video footage.
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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by Pieter Roux » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:54 pm

Any Footage available......
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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by Sin Bad » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:01 pm

Glasair III type wing loading... Combined with a taildragger... And a radial!!!! That is going to be fun... Once mastered!
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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:28 am

AEH wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:50 am
Hi Jim. When we fail to identify any definite cause we take the easy option of blaming the pilot particularly if they are dead. I am raising awareness that just because we fail to find a definitive cause we must not assume pilot error.

Accident investigation is the only discipline that I know of that brings together every other science. The initial focus is on WHAT occurred but future accident prevention needs to establish the much harder element of WHY. Sometimes we just do not have the right answers.
Plenty of speculation here. The test pilot told me he had a moment of indecision when he changed from a touch and go to a full stop landing whilst on the landing roll and that he may have misused the throttle a bit and this moment of indecision probably contributed to him losing it.

All taildragger pilots will know that a landing is not complete until the aircraft has been parked in the hangar. And this Radial Rocket is a monster taildragger. My sympathies are with the pilot. These things can happen to anybody
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