Accident at Krugersdorp today

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E816
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by E816 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:55 am

Flooi wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:47 am
For what it's worth... jabis are slippery and brakes tend to fail when hot. I find the best technique is
a low approach with a tad of power. Fly final at correct speed and stall on numbers. A high and glide
approach, especially at unknown (and short) runway, is not for me.....
That's an interesting view Flooi .... I've never flown a Jabi so can't comment, but I find the exact opposite in the C210. I shallow powered approach and she floats forever. I steep glide approach and she loses most of the energy in the round out and lands on the numbers. It's interesting how different types handle differently, and I guess this is where time on type comes in.

Out of interest, at FAKR I'll never fly a shallow powered approach, as there is zero options of the donkey quits.

Also interesting, we had a talk and presentation on glide slope and stabalized approaches on Tuesday night at the FAKR members meeting ... I believe the PIC of the Jab is not a member.
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Flooi » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:02 am

E816 wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:55 am
Flooi wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:47 am
For what it's worth... jabis are slippery and brakes tend to fail when hot. I find the best technique is
a low approach with a tad of power. Fly final at correct speed and stall on numbers. A high and glide
approach, especially at unknown (and short) runway, is not for me.....
That's an interesting view Flooi .... I've never flown a Jabi so can't comment, but I find the exact opposite in the C210. I shallow powered approach and she floats forever. I steep glide approach and she loses most of the energy in the round out and lands on the numbers. It's interesting how different types handle differently, and I guess this is where time on type comes in.

Out of interest, at FAKR I'll never fly a shallow powered approach, as there is zero options of the donkey quits.

Also interesting, we had a talk and presentation on glide slope and stabalized approaches on Tuesday night at the FAKR members meeting ... I believe the PIC of the Jab is not a member.
You are so right.... but the 210 has real brakes... Most LSA's however, are high drag and a steep glide approach works well. With my previous aircraft,
a Rans 6 Coyote, if you close the throttle and hang out full flaps, you could push the nose down to an almost impossible angle and it would land very short.
Add to that very efficient brakes. The Jabis, even with full flaps, glide on and on and on....... Horses for courses! True about zero options at FAKR.
Last edited by Flooi on Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by E816 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:06 am

Flooi wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:02 am
E816 wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:55 am
Flooi wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:47 am
For what it's worth... jabis are slippery and brakes tend to fail when hot. I find the best technique is
a low approach with a tad of power. Fly final at correct speed and stall on numbers. A high and glide
approach, especially at unknown (and short) runway, is not for me.....
That's an interesting view Flooi .... I've never flown a Jabi so can't comment, but I find the exact opposite in the C210. I shallow powered approach and she floats forever. I steep glide approach and she loses most of the energy in the round out and lands on the numbers. It's interesting how different types handle differently, and I guess this is where time on type comes in.

Out of interest, at FAKR I'll never fly a shallow powered approach, as there is zero options of the donkey quits.

Also interesting, we had a talk and presentation on glide slope and stabalized approaches on Tuesday night at the FAKR members meeting ... I believe the PIC of the Jab is not a member.
You are so right.... but the 210 has real brakes...
I have a photo of the end of the runway showing the tyre skid marks ... is the locking up of brakes an issue with the Jabi brakes?
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:09 am

I do not concur with the "slippery" perspective. All aircraft exhibit different aerodynamic profiles/characteristics and slipperiness to my mind is not a Jabiru characteristic. A Jabi, being a lightweight aircraft does not carry much inertia, hence the need for some power on when landing. You'll find that most very light aircraft exhibit this characteristic. A Lear 45 is slippery
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Christo » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:10 am

The Technam Echo's brakes, for example got hot real quick and would then be pretty much useless

but

if there is skid marks it shows the brakes was working fine when this happened.
Due to the price increase in ammunition, do not expect a warning shot.

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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Flooi » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:19 am

Airwayfreak wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:09 am
I do not concur with the "slippery" perspective. All aircraft exhibit different aerodynamic profiles/characteristics and slipperiness to my mind is not a Jabiru characteristic. A Jabi, being a lightweight aircraft does not carry much inertia, hence the need for some power on when landing. You'll find that most very light aircraft exhibit this characteristic. A Lear 45 is slippery
Never been in a Lear. Don't know. I am comparing LSA.
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Andreb » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:24 am

I fly all the Jabbies and if you land it by the numbers (POH) it stops in a very short distance without jumping on the brakes. It does not need a long runway either. Maybe he did not cut the power completely, has happened to me and believe me it likes to float forever when that happens. If you cross the fence at the right speed she will settle down quiet comfortably and slow down quickly
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Flooi » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:29 am

Andreb wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:24 am
I fly all the Jabbies and if you land it by the numbers (POH) it stops in a very short distance without jumping on the brakes. It does not need a long runway either. Maybe he did not cut the power completely, has happened to me and believe me it likes to float forever when that happens. If you cross the fence at the right speed she will settle down quiet comfortably and slow down quickly
And... you are sooooo right!
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:24 am

Flooi wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:19 am
Never been in a Lear. Don't know. I am comparing LSA.
My point exactly. A comparison was made to a C210, which is of course also a different kettle of fish. I threw in a Lear, and I could have included all jets up to an Airbus A380, because jets are designed to be "slippery". GA aircraft are not slippery, ask my old boss Genl. Barker what his view is of GA
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Volo » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:04 am

The Krugersdorp runway is only 850 meters long and slopes up to the threshold of 26 by 15 meters . I have landed there a few times and my guess is that one will cross the threshold of 08 higher than you ordinarily might have because of the illusion created by the slope ? The prevailing westerly winds might have been an aggravating Factor - just a guess ?
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by jimdavis » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:27 am

E816 wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:13 am
jimdavis wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:31 pm
WOW! That's in remarkably good condition, must have landed nice and slowly. I see at least some flap was used. Without knowing what caused this I would say the pilot did an excellent job under difficult conditions and in really crappy terrain.

jim
Quite the opposite actually .... was fast, touched down very deep and ran off the end of the runway .... this after 2 go arounds.
Ha ha ha I couldn't have got that more wrong if I had tried! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Pete » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:29 am

Volo wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:04 am
The Krugersdorp runway is only 850 meters long and slopes up to the threshold of 26 by 15 meters . I have landed there a few times and my guess is that one will cross the threshold of 08 higher than you ordinarily might have because of the illusion created by the slope ? The prevailing westerly winds might have been an aggravating Factor - just a guess ?
They landed on 26 downhill (third attempt) with a slight tailwind from the NN/E
Video shows a touchdown past the runway midway mark on the nosewheel at a rather rapid rate... sad.. :roll:
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by jimdavis » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:41 am

Confirm an instructor was PIC?

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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by WagAero » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:44 am

speed is oft the lurker in the cupboard - a lot goes right with the correct speed... always believed that the shallow approach does not give one the advantage of using the round-out to get rid of excess speed for a short field landing, but that's a lot for someone just trying to get the wheels on with a normal approach as it requires inputs beyond some capabilities. I wonder why pilot did not reflect on the potential wind factor ... but then when you not in the chair its easy to say. !!! mmm I remember getting sweaty after about 5 go-around's in a new conversion before I got the speed just right and she landed herself.
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by E816 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:44 pm

jimdavis wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:41 am
Confirm an instructor was PIC?

jim
Not sure about instructor, but heard PIC was CPL. PIC + 2 on board.
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