Accident at Krugersdorp today

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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Flooi » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:33 pm

All of you have made valid and intelligent comments. Finally a last post about Jab landings:
I once landed on hot day on runway in use, 18 at FABB at MAUW. No wind. Downhill. Here you are committed to steep
approach. Even at correct speed and full flaps with throttle fully closed, I used up most of
the runway.... with overheated useless brakes. BUT.... back at base FAHG uses only about 300
met on 06. Consider the J170D has same wing as J430 but with smaller fuselage.... wants to glide.....as previous
writer so rightly commented... all are different. So, if it works for you and you remain in the
safety margin and POH instructions, go for it. Some time ago someone landed deep at high
speed at FASI 03 (shallow approach impossible) with a SP470 and guess what? Went into bushes. Brakes overheated so badly, it destroyed
part of bracket. So I learn...... this is why a shallow approach on SOME aircraft may be
safer.... and easier. Bye for now.
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by BD » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:21 pm

Volo ..... regarding your comment about the illusion created by a sloping runway and the fact that FAKR's rwy 26 slopes downhill, you will tend to approach HIGHER than normal on rwy 26 and LOWER than normal on rwy 08. This is because the conditioned brain is trying to create the "picture" it has seen so often when approaching on a non-sloping runway.

The only way to ensure that you don't get led into a trap by the illusion, is to ensure that you always fly the usual (POH) speed, usual power setting, usual flap setting, usual nose attitude that work for a non-sloping runway. If you notice that any one or more of these four is abnormal, you are possibly falling into the trap.

A few years ago in Tanzania, I underwent training conducted by Missionary Aviation Fellowship instructors from the MAF training establishment in Redlands, California. These guys REALLY know their stuff when it comes to what I can only call "hilarious" bush strips waiting to bite the unwary bush pilot. They hammered us on this aspect, among other very interesting and very challenging aspects covered during the training.

Oh ... and by the way, I agree with all those in favour of "steep" approaches rather than the low, flat approaches. All the aerodynamic facts point to the steep approach as the "correct" way to do it!!!

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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Ugly Duckling » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:51 pm

What about steep with a side slip :?:
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by HJK 414 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:51 pm

slopes.jpg
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Chalkie » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:01 pm

BD wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:21 pm
Oh ... and by the way, I agree with all those in favour of "steep" approaches rather than the low, flat approaches. All the aerodynamic facts point to the steep approach as the "correct" way to do it!!!

Brian Davidson.
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Low power, low nose, good view of the runway with speed stable at 1.3 Vstall or less (as required) versus: the low approach with high nose, high power, now where exactly is that runway? :mrgreen:

In this case it would seem the pilot was WAAAY above 1.3Vs and only touched down at about the halfway mark by pushing the aircraft down onto the nosewheel. Folks, the main wheels are designed to absorb the landing loads, the nosewheel is there to keep the prop off the ground whilst you taxi. It is not meant to be landed on... #-o All the skid marks at the end would indicate the wings still supporting some weight, when they should have been done with the producing lift job.

Much has been said about the quality of flight instruction and some flight instructors, this seems to add fuel to the argument of poor quality. Perhaps he / she? should have done another go around and landed uphill. ANY tailwind on a downhill runway is asking for a problem.
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Mrb13676 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:15 pm

Looks like a perfect storm.... Downhill landing, cruddy brakes, deep landing, tailwind plus the memory of the 2 previous go-arounds fresh in the mind....
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by BD » Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:15 pm

HJK 414 ..... a picture is worth a thousand words. Thanks for the excellent diagrams regarding sloping runways.

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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Avgas » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:44 pm

Fly the numbers as Chalkie said.
Jabbies have good enough brakes for what they are meant for but just as nose wheels they are not there to fix a botched landings.
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Taildraggerdriver » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:44 pm

Pete wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:29 am
Volo wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:04 am
The Krugersdorp runway is only 850 meters long and slopes up to the threshold of 26 by 15 meters . I have landed there a few times and my guess is that one will cross the threshold of 08 higher than you ordinarily might have because of the illusion created by the slope ? The prevailing westerly winds might have been an aggravating Factor - just a guess ?
They landed on 26 downhill (third attempt) with a slight tailwind from the NN/E
Video shows a touchdown past the runway midway mark on the nosewheel at a rather rapid rate... sad.. :roll:
Where is the video.....
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by E816 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:24 am

Taildraggerdriver wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:44 pm
Pete wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:29 am
Volo wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:04 am
The Krugersdorp runway is only 850 meters long and slopes up to the threshold of 26 by 15 meters . I have landed there a few times and my guess is that one will cross the threshold of 08 higher than you ordinarily might have because of the illusion created by the slope ? The prevailing westerly winds might have been an aggravating Factor - just a guess ?
They landed on 26 downhill (third attempt) with a slight tailwind from the NN/E
Video shows a touchdown past the runway midway mark on the nosewheel at a rather rapid rate... sad.. :roll:
Where is the video.....
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Mrb13676 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:59 am

The other question, from the comfort of my armchair, is..... why not go around again?
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by FAKRMike » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:39 am

Mrb13676 wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:59 am
The other question, from the comfort of my armchair, is..... why not go around again?
was just about to make the same comment... looks like he may have had enough time to go around again.
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by jimdavis » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:42 am

Was it King Alfred who said "if at first you don't succeed, try and try again. But don't make a c u next Thursday of yourself"? :lol:

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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Iceberg » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:42 am

From the video it seems his ground roll was at least 400m - at least he part visible on the video.
However, he does not seem to slow down, so the brakes don't seem to be working properly.
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by richard C » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:15 am

Brake action may have been reduced by light wheel loading - there were skidmarks on the tarmac, so they did seem to bind.

He doesn't seem to try either aerodynamic braking (full flaps, nose very high, mains on ground), or dumping the flaps to improve wheel loading.

What about a throttle issue ? He really just does not seem to slow down.
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