Accident at Krugersdorp today

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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Mrb13676 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:28 am

https://youtu.be/vqFTD-Bqwl8

[aargh - why can’t I embed this?]
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Avgas » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:34 am

Why blame the aircraft [-X
100% pilot error.
Way too fast
Why not use full flap
Why use downhill
And the big one why not go around. That aircraft was never committed to the landing with that speed.

I am not in any way linked to Jabiru BUT they are great trainers. The 430 floats if you are too fast.They have nice long wings.
Somehow some instructors teach that you have to have a extra 5kts for just in case you need it. Clearly here he did not need it.
Some approach full flap and in the flare reduce flaps to get onto the ground :shock: :shock:
To the Jab owners go and enter spot landing competitions. That way you will get to understand your airy better. Any flap setting
The brakes are good enough.
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Ugly Duckling » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:46 am

Mrb13676 wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:28 am
https://youtu.be/vqFTD-Bqwl8

[aargh - why can’t I embed this?]
Like this :D
Select the [YouTube2017][/YouTube2017]
Cut the "vqFTD-Bqwl8" and paste into the YouTube brackets
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Wildcat_004 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:27 am

This was just a plain dumb decision and poor airmanship. You can see the approach speed was too high. If you approach at the correct speed you stop in a very short distance. End of story. If PIC was an instructor......then it’s even worse .....bad show.
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Christo » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:42 am

richard C wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:15 am

What about a throttle issue ? He really just does not seem to slow down.
Might very well be but then I would cut the mags just before touching down. He had 2 goes at this previously so should have identified it as a problem already.
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Vogoff » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:29 pm

Mrb13676 wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:59 am
The other question, from the comfort of my armchair, is..... why not go around again?
I once had to do two go arounds during a solo cross country. After the second go around I had started to question my competence and some amount of panic had set in. I gave up on the third attempt and continued with the cross country.

A little later in the flight I realised I had read the joining altitude in my notes as the circuit altitude, so was trying to land from 2000 ft AGL. But only had this epiphany after I had calmed down and had a chance to think about it. Before that I had assumed one could easily tell the difference between 1000" and 2000" AGL.

I can imagine how having friends in the plane would have added to the pressure.

(Not saying that is what happened here, but I can certainly empathise with the growing stress and bewilderment - especially if there was another issue the pilot had failed to recognise due to unintentional blindness.)
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Taildraggerdriver » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:55 pm

richard C wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:15 am
Brake action may have been reduced by light wheel loading - there were skidmarks on the tarmac, so they did seem to bind.

He doesn't seem to try either aerodynamic braking (full flaps, nose very high, mains on ground), or dumping the flaps to improve wheel loading.

What about a throttle issue ? He really just does not seem to slow down.
He was shunting,
At first I thought the video was sped up.
Looked very fast
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Flooi » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:48 pm

Taildraggerdriver wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:55 pm
richard C wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:15 am
Brake action may have been reduced by light wheel loading - there were skidmarks on the tarmac, so they did seem to bind.

He doesn't seem to try either aerodynamic braking (full flaps, nose very high, mains on ground), or dumping the flaps to improve wheel loading.

What about a throttle issue ? He really just does not seem to slow down.
He was shunting,
At first I thought the video was sped up.
Looked very fast
Should be 65 over fence...
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by ADB » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:24 pm

Flooi wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:48 pm
Taildraggerdriver wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:55 pm
richard C wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:15 am
Brake action may have been reduced by light wheel loading - there were skidmarks on the tarmac, so they did seem to bind.

He doesn't seem to try either aerodynamic braking (full flaps, nose very high, mains on ground), or dumping the flaps to improve wheel loading.

What about a throttle issue ? He really just does not seem to slow down.
He was shunting,
At first I thought the video was sped up.
Looked very fast
Should be 65 over fence...
65 kias is what the manual says, but it is too fast and you will float. Full flap stall is 45kias. Times 1.3 = 58.5, call it 60.

This is for one skinny pilot. 65 might be appropriate for 2 big farmers!

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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by CrazyC » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:41 pm

ADB wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:24 pm
Flooi wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:48 pm
Taildraggerdriver wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:55 pm


He was shunting,
At first I thought the video was sped up.
Looked very fast
Should be 65 over fence...
65 kias is what the manual says, but it is too fast and you will float. Full flap stall is 45kias. Times 1.3 = 58.5, call it 60.

This is for one skinny pilot. 65 might be appropriate for 2 big farmers!
(We were 70 over the fence( 80kg pax in rear and 75kg co pilot seat) with the possible windshear on R26 i was not being a bush pilot hero to change the POH speeds)

Raising flaps on the ground roll is bush pilot procedure and something i will never teach a student.
Accident investigators want to to what did you do to follow AFM procedure- not what you thought was right.
Skid marks were from me trying to vacate right off the r/w in order to prevent going off the cliff and not from brakes. it was the tyre marks dragging to one side.

Very simple to make all sorts of assumptions without fact. The brakes had failed completely prior to this at rand and was thereafter signed out again as serviceable. It was later reported as defective and rechecked. We were told that this was JAbi brakes. I suggest Avcom place a restriction on the ignorant from making useless unfounded assumptions and comments that do nothing to further aviation. All educated comments from qualified people that are constructive and respectful are welcome



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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Chalkie » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:23 pm

CrazyC wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:41 pm
ADB wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:24 pm
Flooi wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:48 pm

Should be 65 over fence...
65 kias is what the manual says, but it is too fast and you will float. Full flap stall is 45kias. Times 1.3 = 58.5, call it 60.

This is for one skinny pilot. 65 might be appropriate for 2 big farmers!

(We were 70 over the fence( 80kg pax in rear and 75kg co pilot seat) with the possible windshear on R26 i was not being a bush pilot hero to change the POH speeds)
Raising flaps on the ground roll is bush pilot procedure and something i will never teach a student.
Accident investigators want to to what did you do to follow AFM procedure- not what you thought was right.
Skid marks were from me trying to vacate right off the r/w in order to prevent going off the cliff and not from brakes. it was the tyre marks dragging to one side.

Very simple to make all sorts of assumptions without fact. The brakes had failed completely prior to this at rand and was thereafter signed out again as serviceable. It was later reported as defective and rechecked. We were told that this was JAbi brakes. I suggest Avcom place a restriction on the ignorant from making useless unfounded assumptions and comments that do nothing to further aviation. All educated comments from qualified people that are constructive and respectful are welcome



Andrew
Andrew, you are digging your hole deeper. The Jabi manual (apparently, as quoted by others) says 65KIAS as final approach speed. That speed is not for an empty aircraft, but at full gross weight. You say '70 over the fence and you are not going to be a bush pilot hero and change the POH speeds,' why 70? Why not 65 or even 60 as advocated by others? Have you ever stalled that aircraft at gross, or the weight on that day? If you had, then did you do the 1.3Vs sums for that specific aircraft? Why not approach at 1.2 Vs, knowing you only have 850m of downhill runway?

Judging by the video, the excess energy and the deep touchdown should have resulted in a go around. You cannot push an aircraft onto the ground, it needs to be done with flying soon after touchdown. You had way too much speed, way too much energy to dissipate in the 500m or so you had left. The results speak for themselves. Bad brakes? No. Bad piloting techniques, seems a more plausible explanation.

Hell, even airliners have brake fires in an RTO near V1 at gross because all the energy needs to be converted to heat. (Heat is energy.) So hot brakes is not a 'Jabi thing.'

As for your last paragraph. Leaving an aircraft in a condition which allows you or someone else to use it again is a good thing. If Avcom were to place a restriction 'on the ignorant,' well; do be careful. You see, when you point fingers; three point back at you.
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by HJK 414 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:33 pm

Chalkie wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:23 pm
Andrew, you are digging your hole deeper.

If Avcom were to place a restriction 'on the ignorant,' well; do be careful.

Chalks...….

Wasting your time here ...... :smt045

If there was a "restriction" on ignorant Pilots ...... :roll:

JK
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by CrazyC » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:45 pm

Chalkie wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:01 pm
BD wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:21 pm
Oh ... and by the way, I agree with all those in favour of "steep" approaches rather than the low, flat approaches. All the aerodynamic facts point to the steep approach as the "correct" way to do it!!!

Brian Davidson.
Correct. =D> =D> =D>

Low power, low nose, good view of the runway with speed stable at 1.3 Vstall or less (as required) versus: the low approach with high nose, high power, now where exactly is that runway? :mrgreen:

In this case it would seem the pilot was WAAAY above 1.3Vs and only touched down at about the halfway mark by pushing the aircraft down onto the nosewheel. Folks, the main wheels are designed to absorb the landing loads, the nosewheel is there to keep the prop off the ground whilst you taxi. It is not meant to be landed on... #-o All the skid marks at the end would indicate the wings still supporting some weight, when they should have been done with the producing lift job.

Much has been said about the quality of flight instruction and some flight instructors, this seems to add fuel to the argument of poor quality. Perhaps he / she? should have done another go around and landed uphill. ANY tailwind on a downhill runway is asking for a problem.
Very sad when ppl comment without fact. I was the puc and yes i am insteuctor rated. The wind was not a tailwind as some suggest. It was a north westerly at 280/7kts. I despise coming in low and slow at fields with few options esp on anan elevated rw like 26 prone to windshear. I was at 70kts indicated with full flap. I did not touch down on the nosewheel as some suggest. I also never apply brakes on touchdown for fear of heating up brakes and causing tyre bursts. By the time i did apply brakes- there was nothing. The ac would not slow down. I atyempted vacating right onto the grass hence the skid marks. Very irresponsible and a poor airmanship for wknd warriors to give theories based on assumptions without knowing the facts. Brakes were complained about a few times prior to the incident where amos did the beat they could and blamed the poor design on the manufactures. I have my theories but ill leave that to the experts to coment on with all the facts before becoming part of the ignorant know it all wknd warrior crowd. Ignorance and arrogant know it all pilota are the largest danger to aviation
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by HJK 414 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:55 pm

CrazyC wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:45 pm

Very sad when ppl comment without fact. I was the puc and yes i am insteuctor rated.

Ignorance and arrogant know it all pilota are the largest danger to aviation

CrazyC,

All you are doing is displaying that your attitude is overruling your aptitude..... #-o
If you are an instructor - you need to have a long hard look at your own mindset .....

And I agree with your last statement - self reflection suits you ...... :wink:

JK
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Antman » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:01 pm

Friday night, you had a few beers there CrazyC??
ignorant know it all wknd warrior crowd
You assume too much young padawan!!

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