Accident at Krugersdorp today

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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by flypiper » Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:00 pm

Well said BD . :)
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Andreb » Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:28 am

I went out with a J400 on Thursday afternoon, 3 up and did a no brake landing. I crossed the fence at 50- -60 knts, 30 deg flaps, full tanks and managed to stop within 500 to 600 m, did this 3 times and managed to come to stop every time without braking,(slight headwind though). I then tried it at 70 knts 20 deg flaps and had to stomp on the brakes to make it in 800 m. I would still stick my neck out and say speed caused the mishap and not the brakes, but then again I wasn't there so conditions might have been different.
CrazyC I feel for you and know you tried your best, just take this as a learning curve.
From a old gray hair PPL "weekend warrior" :D
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by flypiper » Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:59 am

: morning ,

Learned through a lifetime in aviation ,if youve made a mistake in aviation get out of the Aircraft put your hands up and say I stuffed up . It will be acsepted by all and you dont have to keep on explaining and that never stops in a lifetime ..
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by fstols » Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:08 am

I had an incident on my own Jabiru once where the very thin, plastic hydraulic pipe that is cable-tied to the landing gear strut was nicked by a stone or object kicked up by the prop (or that is what I suspect) and the leak led to a complete brake failure. I am not suggesting this is the case here as the pilot would probably have felt and reported the lack of pressure when applying the brake lever. The only point I am making is that brakes can fail during a landing roll and it is always a good idea to anticipate this possibility when planning an approach and landing.

My J450 had single calipers and thin disc brakes... these days I see Jabbi’s are fitted with dual calipers and/or thicker brake discs. Probably not a bad idea as I have also experienced the over-heating reduced braking effect on my Jab but this was usually due to hard braking trying to make an early taxiway turnoff. During normal landings, using normal speeds, I never had any issues with my ‘flimsy’ brakes in many happy hundreds of hours of flying, many times at MAUW.
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by C Africa » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:13 pm

I'm just going to add a tiny little bit from own experience. So, MY MISTAKE was I came in on a shortish, downsloping runway a little hot and a little high (no, not in a Jabbi). Nothing to be worried about, still plenty of space. So you settle down, retract the flaps, allow speed to bleed off, and THEN you apply brakes!! Only to find there ARE NO BRAKES.

Now you have a problem. The speed is already too low, and the remaining runway too short to apply power for a go round!!!! So I did what the accident pilot did. Swerved the plane from side to side, and kept on pumping the brakes. I was lucky, I managed to stop it with one wheel over the threshold (sideways). Had the brakes been working, the landing would have been perfectly uneventful. But it wasn't!



C
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Deanw » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:51 pm

If the aircraft has a history of issues with brakes, then what to do in the event of brake failure on landing should be part of your pre-landing mental checklist?
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Mike Wissing » Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:19 am

Checking for brake pressure should be part of your vital actions.
Brake failure should not really be a surprise in 9/10 cases :D
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by dale » Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:34 pm

jimdavis wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:32 pm
CrazyC wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:31 am
Hi oom Jim
Appreciate the advice. However the comment about the 50kts speed below is accurate. There was definitely zero braking effect on the ac which i inly found out at the time of brake application further down the runway. An important fact which nobody here seems to take into account is that a complete brake failure was reported and confirmed on this aircraft 2 months prior.1 week prior, i flew the ac to kdorp to have the brakes further adjusted where i was told that they cannot do much more to the brakes. Just stating that there was more to the brake issue then "theorists" would know without the facts which is dangerous and insulting
Hi Crazy, I agree, from the video it certainly looks like the brakes were not working.

jim
What caused the black marks on the runway?
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by jimdavis » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:10 pm

dale wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:34 pm
jimdavis wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:32 pm
CrazyC wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:31 am
Hi oom Jim
Appreciate the advice. However the comment about the 50kts speed below is accurate. There was definitely zero braking effect on the ac which i inly found out at the time of brake application further down the runway. An important fact which nobody here seems to take into account is that a complete brake failure was reported and confirmed on this aircraft 2 months prior.1 week prior, i flew the ac to kdorp to have the brakes further adjusted where i was told that they cannot do much more to the brakes. Just stating that there was more to the brake issue then "theorists" would know without the facts which is dangerous and insulting
Hi Crazy, I agree, from the video it certainly looks like the brakes were not working.

jim
What caused the black marks on the runway?
I don't know, Dale. Do you? Going sideways perhaps?

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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by Orthin Opter » Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:53 pm

Nobody asked me but I would say the brakes worked fine. Locked up the wheels due to low mass on the wheels as the wing was still producing lift as the pilot departed the runway and airfield property. JK, summed it up Three approached led to an aircraft in a ditch. Methinks the aircraft was not to blame.
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by dale » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:19 am

Orthin Opter wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:53 pm
Nobody asked me but I would say the brakes worked fine. Locked up the wheels due to low mass on the wheels as the wing was still producing lift as the pilot departed the runway and airfield property. JK, summed it up Three approached led to an aircraft in a ditch. Methinks the aircraft was not to blame.
That's exactly my thoughts
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by haXor » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:57 am

I do BUMPFF checks on my downwind leg.

B - Brakes. I give the brake lever 3 tugs in my J430 as the first 2 tugs could be emptying out the fluid giving a false positive if there is a leak. In the Jabi, you will know immediately if you have no brake fluid.

I've landed without brakes before in the Jabi but because of that downwind check and planning thereof (rwy length, upslope, energy mgmt), it was a non event.

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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by excolonial » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:49 pm

All this talk about mistakes has me confused, I never make them. I walk on water occasionally when I am not turning water into wine.
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by AJW » Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:35 am

excolonial wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:49 pm
All this talk about mistakes has me confused, I never make them. I walk on water occasionally when I am not turning water into wine.
Making mistakes is one thing.

Admitting them is another. We often try to shift the blame. It is not easy to try to defend yourself on social media.
Everybody has a right to voice his/her opinion.
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Re: Accident at Krugersdorp today

Unread post by excolonial » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:53 am

Nothing more than a flippant comment meant to be mildly amusing, not intended to dig at anyone, on either side. Jims point about admitting our mistakes is an interesting one, and I think a fair. The recency of the events, the frustration at having damaged a machine etc etc will definitely temper our willingness to publicly admit our part in a mistake. Privately I suspect he is kicking himself around the airfield.
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