Aircraft down near Howick

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Re: Aircraft down near Howick

Unread post by jimdavis » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:05 am

So once we have got past the age deal, can we try to put together what happened?

Would it be correct to say that at this stage it looks like a mishandled EFATO following maintenance?

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Re: Aircraft down near Howick

Unread post by Deanw » Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:12 am

A number of posts have been deleted regarding the term "elderly," etc.

Please keep to topic.
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Re: Aircraft down near Howick

Unread post by Morph » Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:14 am

I see it had a VW 2.1 engine. Never trusted these powerplants from a reliability view. They are also very heavy, compared to a Rotax 582, which does leave much to play with before exceeding 500kg MAUW (Should be 450kg if it was a standard Bushbaby IIRC)
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Re: Aircraft down near Howick

Unread post by Dobbs » Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:20 am

My information is that it was a 912ULS.

It was converted some years ago from a nose wheel to conventional gear, maybe engine was also changed then?
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Re: Aircraft down near Howick

Unread post by JEAN-PIERRE » Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:44 pm

Morph wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:14 am
I see it had a VW 2.1 engine. Never trusted these powerplants from a reliability view. They are also very heavy, compared to a Rotax 582, which does leave much to play with before exceeding 500kg MAUW (Should be 450kg if it was a standard Bushbaby IIRC)
Greg, are we off on another tangent?
Many people don't trust SAA, yet it does not make it a bad Airline.
Many don't trust planes, does not make aviation unsafe.
Whether it has a VW, Rotax, Conti or Lycoming engine, because of their inherent nature, mechanical things do fail,
and often, because of "other" issues that contribute to to this failure.
Elon Musk has had a few rockets fail in his endeavours to reach success.
I have had incredible joy and hassle free flying with my VW engine :)

Let's find out what really happened and learn what we can.
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Re: Aircraft down near Howick

Unread post by Marty » Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:56 pm

JEAN-PIERRE wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:44 pm
Morph wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:14 am
I see it had a VW 2.1 engine. Never trusted these powerplants from a reliability view. They are also very heavy, compared to a Rotax 582, which does leave much to play with before exceeding 500kg MAUW (Should be 450kg if it was a standard Bushbaby IIRC)
Greg, are we off on another tangent?
Many people don't trust SAA, yet it does not make it a bad Airline.
Many don't trust planes, does not make aviation unsafe.
Whether it has a VW, Rotax, Conti or Lycoming engine, because of their inherent nature, mechanical things do fail,
and often, because of "other" issues that contribute to to this failure.
Elon Musk has had a few rockets fail in his endeavours to reach success.
I have had incredible joy and hassle free flying with my VW engine :)

Let's find out what really happened and learn what we can.
As it seems to be EFATO as we cant talk about the engine, can we discuss the possibility of the impossible turn?
We could discuss the effects of low inertia airframes but don't want to offend the bush baby owners..
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Re: Aircraft down near Howick

Unread post by richard C » Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:09 pm

JEAN-PIERRE wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:44 pm
Morph wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:14 am
I see it had a VW 2.1 engine. Never trusted these powerplants from a reliability view. They are also very heavy, compared to a Rotax 582, which does leave much to play with before exceeding 500kg MAUW (Should be 450kg if it was a standard Bushbaby IIRC)
Greg, are we off on another tangent?
Many people don't trust SAA, yet it does not make it a bad Airline.
Many don't trust planes, does not make aviation unsafe.
Whether it has a VW, Rotax, Conti or Lycoming engine, because of their inherent nature, mechanical things do fail,
and often, because of "other" issues that contribute to to this failure.
Elon Musk has had a few rockets fail in his endeavours to reach success.
I have had incredible joy and hassle free flying with my VW engine :)

Let's find out what really happened and learn what we can.
Sorry Jean-Pierre, speculation is encouraged. If you have an argument, then present it in defense of the power-plant. Telling us we may not discuss it or consider it is not useful.
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Re: Aircraft down near Howick

Unread post by JEAN-PIERRE » Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:38 pm

richard C wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:09 pm
JEAN-PIERRE wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:44 pm
Morph wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:14 am
I see it had a VW 2.1 engine. Never trusted these powerplants from a reliability view. They are also very heavy, compared to a Rotax 582, which does leave much to play with before exceeding 500kg MAUW (Should be 450kg if it was a standard Bushbaby IIRC)
Greg, are we off on another tangent?
Many people don't trust SAA, yet it does not make it a bad Airline.
Many don't trust planes, does not make aviation unsafe.
Whether it has a VW, Rotax, Conti or Lycoming engine, because of their inherent nature, mechanical things do fail,
and often, because of "other" issues that contribute to to this failure.
Elon Musk has had a few rockets fail in his endeavours to reach success.
I have had incredible joy and hassle free flying with my VW engine :)

Let's find out what really happened and learn what we can.
Sorry Jean-Pierre, speculation is encouraged. If you have an argument, then present it in defense of the power-plant. Telling us we may not discuss it or consider it is not useful.
[/quote

Richard, no where do I say, "don't speculate".
Of course it's encouraged, but let's build on what we do know and.learn from there.
You know that :)
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Re: Aircraft down near Howick

Unread post by giarc64 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:00 am

I second Jean Pierre on his statements.

Evereyone has a choice when it comes to selecting aeroplanes and engines. Morph you have your own opinion about VW's engines and thats fine.

I have flown 850 hours behind a VW and she has been bullet proof. Irrespective of engine type , failures do happen. EFATO is a failure of the engine, not the engen type. Aeroplanes are still controlable without the engine. I would like to know what led to the aeroplane crashing so heavily as apposed to a safe glide and a forced landing with a favourable outcome. lets wait and see what transpires from the investigation.
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Re: Aircraft down near Howick

Unread post by Ugly Duckling » Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:21 am

Engine failure is when bits are usually sticking out of holes that were never there before. It is not part of the pilot's normal skill set other than to ensure as tidy an arrival on the ground as possible.
Loss of power after takeoff is another matter entirely. It could be a total or partial loss of power.
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Re: Aircraft down near Howick

Unread post by Morph » Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:56 am

It is possible the fuel taps were left closed. There is a small header tank, but I tested on my plane and you have minutes before the engine dies due to the vacuum
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Re: Aircraft down near Howick

Unread post by Kogs » Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:13 am

Is it possible they took off on the north west heading runway over the unforgiving gorge below the Howick Falls and tried to turn back to the cross runway?
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Re: Aircraft down near Howick

Unread post by Morph » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:13 am

I had a 912UL installed in my Explorer. My weight and balance was set close to the most forward limit when completely empty, allowing me to load up to the MAUW of 600KG moving the COG back but remaining ahead of the maximum rearward limit. However when you cut the throttle, with the heavy motor, the nose would drop and you would have to find a landing spot soon. Other 582 powered Bushbabies would have a better glide ratio.
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Re: Aircraft down near Howick

Unread post by diegopadron47 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:18 am

Ugly Duckling wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:21 am
Engine failure is when bits are usually sticking out of holes that were never there before. It is not part of the pilot's normal skill set other than to ensure as tidy an arrival on the ground as possible.
Loss of power after takeoff is another matter entirely. It could be a total or partial loss of power.
engine failure is engine failure, the cause and degree varies of course, you maybe be referring to catastrophic engine failure in which restart is not possible
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Re: Aircraft down near Howick

Unread post by Marck » Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:16 am

Hi Guys

I got these 2 photos via whatsapp. These photos showing AC from another angle.
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Looking for AC.

If you push the stick forward, the houses get bigger. If you pull the stick back, they get smaller. That is, unless you keep pulling the stick all the way back, then they get bigger again

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