FAVV / 172

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FAVV / 172

Unread post by dale » Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:27 am

C 172 runway excursion. Aircraft damaged but students okay
This is my view of what happened.
I was doing circuits on runway 03 at FAVV from about 06:45 (500' short circuits) Wind less than 5 knots @ about 05 degrees.
At some point ZS PXK taxied out to holding point and announced that they were also conducting circuit training.
I'm not sure how many circuits they did but after a full stop landing, the instructor announced over the radio that his student was going to fly solo circuits. The student taxied out, made all the correct calls and got airborne on 03. I made sure to stay behind him on the first circuit, so as not to intimidate him by doing 500' circuits. He flew quite a big circuit (not uncommon for a solo student). Only thing is, he encroached towards the runway on downwind, making his base leg very short. When he turned final, it was about a 2 mile final but stabilised and correctly configured with flaps. The approach and touchdown looked perfect from my point of view. ( I was now on final). When he got to the point that I would have expected him to apply power, he veered about 20 degrees left. At first I thought it was the torque/slipstream that caught him. But he kept going left and I saw dust as the wheels went off the tar. Then for a second, the dust disappeared and I thought he was airborne. It just looked like he was too slow and not accelerating. Then I saw dust again and realised that he was still on the ground and heading for the taxi way. I didn't want to interfere as I expected to hear some instructions from the instructor, over the radio. He had now crossed the taxi way and was heading towards the runway 15. If he crossed runway 15, he would encounter some trees and later other obstacles. As he reached runway 15, I shouted over the radio, "Shut the power! Shut the power". If he was reacting to my call or not, I don't know but the nose dipped and about 30 meters further, dug in and went over on it's back. I was now on short final. I landed and quickly taxied along 03, turned onto 33 and stopped at the taxiway intersection. Far enough away in case of fire. I shut down, jumped out and ran towards him. I found the student pilot sitting on the grass about 15 meters from the starboard wing. I checked for injuries but he looked okay. (Very shaken) More people had now arrived on the scene. I asked them to look after him while I secure the aircraft. The RH door was open. I checked carefully for fire and then crawled into the cockpit. Everything was still on and gyros spinning. I switched the master off, magnetos off, removed the key and shut the fuel valve. I had a good look around to be sure everything was safe. Two things caught my attention. 1) Flaps were fully retracted. selector up, indicator zero and I confirmed by looking at the actual flaps. Not a serious issue as I was told it's a 180 Hp engine, with one on board it should easily fly with no flaps. 2) Mixture was fully lean. (Idle cut off). Throttle looked very slightly open but I didn't want to move and disturb anything to check. I went back to my aircraft and flew some more circuits but the mixture thing bugged me. The student didn't switch anything off and got out in a big hurry. (Understandable) But why pull the mixture to full lean? After landing I went back to check and confirm what I had seen. Yep, fully lean.
Now this is only my opinion.
Is it possible, after touchdown he took his hand off the throttle to retract the flap. When he put it back, he inadvertently put his hand on the mixture control and advanced it fully forward thinking it was the throttle. This would explain him not accelerating. I checked where the wheels rolled and there were no skid marks, so he wasn't applying breaks.
Then when I shouted for him the shut the power, he pulled the mixture fully closed as he thought he was pulling the throttle?
I also checked the propeller and found almost no damage to the leading edge. confirming no power.
As I said, just my opinion.
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Last edited by dale on Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: FAVV / 172

Unread post by Ollo » Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:37 am

Any idea on the registration?
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Re: FAVV / 172

Unread post by homebuilt » Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:44 pm

:lol: :lol: I have a good pair of glasses for you but unfortunately I am using them at present. Check the photos for reg or is upside down a problem. :lol: :lol:
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To be fair, the photos were added after the question was posted.
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Re: FAVV / 172

Unread post by BenSmit » Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:11 pm

Take the X out and reserve the rest for the student
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Re: FAVV / 172

Unread post by dr727 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:08 pm

if nothing else robust aircraft and pilot appears unhurt (except ego maybe)
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Re: FAVV / 172

Unread post by Raffles » Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:31 pm

As a matter of interest which is more survivable when a nose-over occurs, low wing or high wing?
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Re: FAVV / 172

Unread post by Slam and Go » Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:12 pm

Raffles wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:31 pm
As a matter of interest which is more survivable when a nose-over occurs, low wing or high wing?
I would imagine a high wing.

It is easier to get out as well.
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Re: FAVV / 172

Unread post by JCA » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:22 pm

dale wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:27 am
C 172 runway excursion. Aircraft damaged but students okay
one of yours Dale?
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Re: FAVV / 172

Unread post by dale » Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:46 am

JCA wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:22 pm
dale wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:27 am
C 172 runway excursion. Aircraft damaged but students okay
one of yours Dale?
Luckily not!
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Re: FAVV / 172

Unread post by richard C » Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:49 am

Runway excursions always make me sad, its like falling off a bicycle. Once you learn how to do it, you'll never do it again. The trick is to get it right before you have the excursion.

Had a couple of near misses when learning to fly, luckily in a Tecnam that I could (dangerously) drag into the air before I left the (very wide) tar at Rand. I know we can blame the instructors etc etc, but sometimes this kind of stuff just catches some poor students out. I feel for the guy.

Hopefully Alan S will chime in about his great near-miss at FAVV, let's just say the instructor (standing alongside the runway), the fuel jockey and the ATC all went home and hugged their families that night :lol: :lol:
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Re: FAVV / 172

Unread post by dale » Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:06 pm

richard C wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:49 am
Runway excursions always make me sad, its like falling off a bicycle. Once you learn how to do it, you'll never do it again. The trick is to get it right before you have the excursion.

There are a few more tricks.
1) use your feet. They are not only there to walk you to the plane.
2) when things go wrong on the ground at low speed, close the power & stop!
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Re: FAVV / 172

Unread post by Chalkie » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:57 pm

dale wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:27 am
C 172 runway excursion. Aircraft damaged but students okay
This is my view of what happened.

As I said, just my opinion.
Perhaps I am becoming old and grumpy. In previous posts I described my first solo: I KNEW I could do it, I had about 15 hours dual, so it was an anti-climax. I told my instructor, "Brian, I will tell you when I am ready." (OK, I was 32 years old he was a bit younger.)

Why? Because I did not want to go solo at 6 hours. To prove what exactly? Evidently this student was not ready for solo, considering the conditions at the time, yet the instructor decided to send him solo. WHY? All it did was push up insurance rates.

Young instructors. If you feel the student is not ready; write that in his/her file.

If you decide to send the student solo. Ask yourself: If this was MY aircraft, my pride and joy, would I send him/her solo?
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Re: FAVV / 172

Unread post by dale » Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:22 pm

Chalkie wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:57 pm
dale wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:27 am
C 172 runway excursion. Aircraft damaged but students okay
This is my view of what happened.

As I said, just my opinion.
Perhaps I am becoming old and grumpy. In previous posts I described my first solo: I KNEW I could do it, I had about 15 hours dual, so it was an anti-climax. I told my instructor, "Brian, I will tell you when I am ready." (OK, I was 32 years old he was a bit younger.)

Why? Because I did not want to go solo at 6 hours. To prove what exactly? Evidently this student was not ready for solo, considering the conditions at the time, yet the instructor decided to send him solo. WHY? All it did was push up insurance rates.

Young instructors. If you feel the student is not ready; write that in his/her file.

If you decide to send the student solo. Ask yourself: If this was MY aircraft, my pride and joy, would I send him/her solo?
Agreed
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Re: FAVV / 172

Unread post by flypiper » Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:11 pm

Hi Chalkie and Dale,

Valuable statements. :D
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Re: FAVV / 172

Unread post by jimdavis » Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:44 pm

Raffles wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:31 pm
As a matter of interest which is more survivable when a nose-over occurs, low wing or high wing?
Raffles, sorry I can't answer that question - manly because I don't remember ever seeing a high wing with its bones in the light.

I guess that is because the C of G is way down low. Also if you compare the most common low and high wing aircraft - Pipers and Cessnas, the low wings typically have a large nose wheel - generally the same size as the mains - while Cessna go for smaller and flimsier ones.

And Chalks, I have to agree with you - directional control is a very common training problem, and incredibly easy to fix. You simply have to insist that the pupil is positive on the rudder. Most low hour pilots try to EASE the aircraft back to the centreline - they are afraid to be firm and positive with the rudder pedals because they think the aircraft will tip over.

All you have to do is make them taxi the length of the runway at about 30 its and firmly take the aircraft to one side then back to the centreline then to the other side and back to centreline, and so on.

You only have to do this a couple of times and they quickly gain the confidence to to be firm with the rudders on the ground.

So, when this sort of thing happens, it's because the instructor has not done this exercise with the pupe. It's that simple.

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