FALA A-RNP Rwy25

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BallsOfFire
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Re: FALA A-RNP Rwy25

Unread post by BallsOfFire » Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:00 pm

I was told, the operator needs SACAA approval to fly this, with also the AC needs to comply (only Kulula & Mango) currently does.... I dont what this mean or f it is true.....

I am still not sure what equipment you need onboard to comply....
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Re: FALA A-RNP Rwy25

Unread post by jalopysled » Sat Oct 08, 2016 3:50 am

Ah yes, 'now having taken the time to read the regs - CAR91.05.03 and the associated CATS refer to the training required (it refers to the CATS61 but I still haven't found a section dealing with the training required). CATS91.05.03 also mentions the certification standards required for the GPS unit - I could be wrong but I'm sure the Garmin KLN90 meets the certification requirement. Will need to read further and suppose dig up an appendix to the CATS regarding training and equipment required.
Would be a good topic for a DFE applicant to delve into!
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Re: FALA A-RNP Rwy25

Unread post by BallsOfFire » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:18 pm

Evening Everyone,

We have a G3000, and today (VMC) looked at the FALA RPN for rwy 25. The charts are showing the RPN-25 for FALA, but no approach to load to fly this.

On the approach list it had an SBAS option, but it askes for a frequency.... What does one have to do here?

So my question is what else is required by the airplane to fly this?

Rgs
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Re: FALA A-RNP Rwy25

Unread post by Only » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:36 pm

I just had a look at the Jep plate. It says A-RNP/RF req. I do not know the G3000 but may be it is not capable of it. As far as I know is SBAS not available in South Africa.
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Re: FALA A-RNP Rwy25

Unread post by BallsOfFire » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:41 pm

ONLY, I see that now.. :)

I wonder how does the airlines fly this and /or what is required in the AC...
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Re: FALA A-RNP Rwy25

Unread post by Only » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:05 am

BallsOfFire wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:41 pm
ONLY, I see that now.. :)

I wonder how does the airlines fly this and /or what is required in the AC...
Doc 9613 PBN Manual 4th Edition.pdf
Attached is the ICAO PBN manual the section on A-RNP starts on page 249 see if you can find anything there. Sorry a bit busy to read it myself.
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Re: FALA A-RNP Rwy25

Unread post by BallsOfFire » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:55 am

ONLY, thank you, let me go through this...
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Re: FALA A-RNP Rwy25

Unread post by Andrew Smit » Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:02 pm

BallsOfFire wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:18 pm
Evening Everyone,

We have a G3000, and today (VMC) looked at the FALA RPN for rwy 25. The charts are showing the RPN-25 for FALA, but no approach to load to fly this.

On the approach list it had an SBAS option, but it askes for a frequency.... What does one have to do here?

So my question is what else is required by the airplane to fly this?

Rgs
BoF
The reason you could not load the approach is probably because your system is not capable of loading an approach with an RF Leg (curved portion of the approach). This is a public procedure and your Nav DB vender would load it if they could.

In very basic terms, your Nav system must be capable of RNP 0.3nm for the approach phase, must be able to code a RF Leg and must use GNSS as the primary sensor source.

As poster before, the ICAO Doc provides technical guidence.
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Re: FALA A-RNP Rwy25

Unread post by tansg » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:19 pm

Andrew Smit wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:02 pm
BallsOfFire wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:18 pm
Evening Everyone,

We have a G3000, and today (VMC) looked at the FALA RPN for rwy 25. The charts are showing the RPN-25 for FALA, but no approach to load to fly this.

On the approach list it had an SBAS option, but it askes for a frequency.... What does one have to do here?

So my question is what else is required by the airplane to fly this?

Rgs
BoF
The reason you could not load the approach is probably because your system is not capable of loading an approach with an RF Leg (curved portion of the approach). This is a public procedure and your Nav DB vender would load it if they could.

In very basic terms, your Nav system must be capable of RNP 0.3nm for the approach phase, must be able to code a RF Leg and must use GNSS as the primary sensor source.

As poster before, the ICAO Doc provides technical guidence.
Couldn't have said it better. :D

PS Andrew all aircraft now entering UAE airspace must be equipped with GNSS much to the chagrin of the IL-76 operators :lol: This due to the "new" airspace design implemented a year ago which is totally PBN based with all routes requiring RNP capability.
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Re: FALA A-RNP Rwy25

Unread post by Hop Harrigan » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:08 pm

I noticed the FALA RNP approach R25 on the CAA charts section this week. Now as I understand it, my GNSS approved aircraft can’t handle an RNP approach, as I guess can’t most GA aircraft using FALA.
So, can anyone explain why there is a GNSS approach to R07 and RNP approach to R25. If R25 is in use, what do us mere mortals do? Circling approach? FALA ATC don’t like to approve circling approaches.
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Re: FALA A-RNP Rwy25

Unread post by Only » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:03 pm

Hop Harrigan wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:08 pm
I noticed the FALA RNP approach R25 on the CAA charts section this week. Now as I understand it, my GNSS approved aircraft can’t handle an RNP approach, as I guess can’t most GA aircraft using FALA.
So, can anyone explain why there is a GNSS approach to R07 and RNP approach to R25. If R25 is in use, what do us mere mortals do? Circling approach? FALA ATC don’t like to approve circling approaches.
Hop
I can think due to airspace restrictions (Pelindaba and Waterkloof) it is impossible to put a normal GNSS approach on R25 and it is possible that the airlines paid for the development of the A-RNP approach so they do not have delays for when R25 is in use in bad weather.
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Re: FALA A-RNP Rwy25

Unread post by tansg » Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:26 am

Hop Harrigan wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:08 pm
I noticed the FALA RNP approach R25 on the CAA charts section this week. Now as I understand it, my GNSS approved aircraft can’t handle an RNP approach, as I guess can’t most GA aircraft using FALA.
So, can anyone explain why there is a GNSS approach to R07 and RNP approach to R25. If R25 is in use, what do us mere mortals do? Circling approach? FALA ATC don’t like to approve circling approaches.
Hop
Hi Hop as the person who was signing off these approaches when they were developed I have a serious insight to the issues involved in their publication and will try and make the whole web of politics a bit clearer.

The RNAV (GNSS) APCH for 07 (soon to be renamed under the ICAO naming protocol change to RNP APCH) is a "normal run-of-the-mill" GNSS approach. The RNAV (RNP) APCH or Advanced RNP approach for 25 is a highly specialised procedure requiring specialised aircraft and avionics performance to be able to fly a curved descending approach onto final approach. This is necessitated by the restrictions of the Lanseria TMA to the North-East and the requirements to keep the aircraft flying the approach in controlled airspace for obvious safety reasons. The reasons for the the abbreviated airspace to the North-East are due to the proximity to the "immoveable" Swartkops ATZ, the VFR routes and primarily the existance of the Ebury airfield. The presence of this "Victory for General Aviation"

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=115759&p=1269657&hi ... y#p1269579

airfield and the regulatory requirements for seperation of IFR aircraft from such has effectively killed any possibility of a "normal" IFR approach into Lanseria from the North-East, thanks to our good friends at AOPA (Kosie, Mauler and the gang).

The A-RNP initiative was driven by Comair and SAA to be able to provide an alternative approach for their scheduled commercial operations if weather conditions dictated an approach onto 25. It was never envisaged as being an approach for General Aviation use (apart from a few high end Bizjets).

So yes for "mere mortals" there is no alternative but a circling approach with all the elevated safety risks that makes the ATCs (and all members of Jim's LCC) so edgy.
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Re: FALA A-RNP Rwy25

Unread post by Hop Harrigan » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:39 pm

Hi tansg,
Thanks for the explanation...nice that someone out there actually can give an unambiguous explanation.
“Ebury”???? never heard of the damn thing! How many hundred traffic movements does this place have a day? While I have every respect for GA’s rights and democracy, it seems ludicrous that a pot shot private airfield can take preference over the safety of arriving aircraft at an International airport!
Ok, so I’ll just stick to asking for a circling approach to R25 and getting told ‘no, go join base for R25’ visual!
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Re: FALA A-RNP Rwy25

Unread post by tansg » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:11 am

Hop Harrigan wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:39 pm
Hi tansg,
Thanks for the explanation...nice that someone out there actually can give an unambiguous explanation.
“Ebury”???? never heard of the damn thing! How many hundred traffic movements does this place have a day? While I have every respect for GA’s rights and democracy, it seems ludicrous that a pot shot private airfield can take preference over the safety of arriving aircraft at an International airport!
Ok, so I’ll just stick to asking for a circling approach to R25 and getting told ‘no, go join base for R25’ visual!
Hop
Yeah what I put in my post was the highlights, you should hear the lowlights. The need for a "regular" IFR approach onto Lanseria Rwy 25, amongst other things including security concerns, was the basis for the original declining of a license for Ebury which was obviously overturned by a judge who had no clue as of the implications to not only future scheduled operations at Lanseria but also to the safety of aircraft, passengers and the local community. This was also not helped by the quality of the defence raised by the CAA Legal section.

Does anyone know if Ebury was ever built?
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Re: FALA A-RNP Rwy25

Unread post by Ari-wan » Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:42 pm

The G1000/Cirrus Perspective with the latest software load (.34, IIRC) can fly RF RNP approaches. I've flown the RNP25 FALA in VMC (with the appropriate training, CAA sign-offs, etc. etc. etc.) and it behaves as you would expect.

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