What really brought down the Boeing 737 Max?

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What really brought down the Boeing 737 Max?

Unread post by jean » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:04 am

Malfunctions caused two deadly crashes. But an industry that puts unprepared pilots in the cockpit is just as guilty, not to mention greed: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/maga ... ashes.html
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Re: What really brought down the Boeing 737 Max?

Unread post by Shieling » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:24 am

Unfortunately this is not the first time a lack of airmanship, understanding of the aircraft's systems and crew experience has played a part in an accident. In modern times the Asiana flight 214 accident in San Fransisco comes to mind.
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Re: What really brought down the Boeing 737 Max?

Unread post by kennyhubbard » Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:48 am

What a an overly verbose rambling bunch to toss. Full of second guessing without considering the big picture.......and when I last looked "Airmanship" was not something that could be measured in the simulator.

I will be the first to admit that I do not know nearly enough about my plane and when under pressure I make mistakes. I guess I have no airmanship :shock:

The blame for these 2 crashes is coming home to roost quite firmly where it belongs and that is at the foot of the regulator. Regulation without oversight is as useless as runway behind you.
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Re: What really brought down the Boeing 737 Max?

Unread post by Daimler » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:25 am

kennyhubbard wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:48 am
"What a an overly verbose rambling bunch to toss."

Bad day?
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Re: What really brought down the Boeing 737 Max?

Unread post by kennyhubbard » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:47 am

D,

Sorry, not a bad day. Just a touchy nerve I guess. When ever I hear about pilot error, I think copout in terms of root cause analysis.

Any accident is going to have elements of pilot error. For sure, the pilots reactions and actions will be studied in these 2 accidents, but when you have an article purporting to provide the true reason for the crashes and it is a major pilot hatchet job then I have to raise an eyebrow.

I have no objections to a discussion on what they did wrong and what we can take away from it but this article just goes on and on with multiple judgemental second guesses of their actions with no apparent objective other than to apportion blame. And at the end it doesn't actually state what it believes caused the crashes. I don't dispute the factual content, just the context in which it is slanted.
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Re: What really brought down the Boeing 737 Max?

Unread post by lawotschkin » Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:10 pm

.. couldn't open the link, but saw yesterday that Boeing also is going to change its structure - apparently the development engineers were reporting into the CFO .. no further questions ..
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Re: What really brought down the Boeing 737 Max?

Unread post by MadMacs » Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:27 pm

Poor design and shoddy workmanship was the major cause of these accidents with self regulation the reason the first two failed. The pilots did their best.

To imply that the pilots were low time pilots or that the plane was too complicated for their level of expertise is scandalous, the B737 was an entry level jet that any pilot could fly.
Last edited by MadMacs on Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What really brought down the Boeing 737 Max?

Unread post by Orthin Opter » Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:31 pm

kennyhubbard wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:48 am
What a an overly verbose rambling bunch to toss. Full of second guessing without considering the big picture.......and when I last looked "Airmanship" was not something that could be measured in the simulator.
I tried to wade through the pages but the ramblings and pro usa, pro boeing bs bored me. To quote the author: "In the drama of the 737 Max, it was the decisions made by four of those pilots, more than the failure of a single obscure component, that led to 346 deaths and the worldwide grounding of the entire fleet." So, you see boeing and the usa are not to blame. History will say otherwise.
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Re: What really brought down the Boeing 737 Max?

Unread post by CLFO » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:05 pm

“the B737 was an entry level jet that any pilot could fly.”

That is hilarious.
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Re: What really brought down the Boeing 737 Max?

Unread post by Burner » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:47 pm

I just find it hilarious. Both Airbus and Boeing have pitched heavily to the airlines, especially in Europe and Asia, how easy the aircraft is to fly and operate. Had they said, no the A320 family or B737 family required high time pilots to fly them safely, do you think the aircraft would have sold so successfully?

The reality is that in many aviation markets around the world, there simply are very few ''highly experienced'' airline pilots. The reality is in places like Europe, a significant percentage of airline flights daily, are operated safely by low total time pilots. The training in Europe, as well as the incredibly structured operating environment, mean it can and is safely done.

It's laughable now that Boeing are turning around and now fingering the inexperienced first officers as the main issue for the max.
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Re: What really brought down the Boeing 737 Max?

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:19 am

MadMacs wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:27 pm
the B737 was an entry level jet that any pilot could fly.
I disagree with that statement. I'd say a C 550 is an entry-level jet. Even a Lear 45 starts moving in the direction of an advanced jet.

I see BA and Lufthansa are starting to block off the rear seats of their NEO fleet in order to keep within C of G envelopes. Quite disturbing as well
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Re: What really brought down the Boeing 737 Max?

Unread post by MadMacs » Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:52 am

Airwayfreak wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:19 am
MadMacs wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:27 pm
the B737 was an entry level jet that any pilot could fly.
I disagree with that statement. I'd say a C 550 is an entry-level jet. Even a Lear 45 starts moving in the direction of an advanced jet.

I see BA and Lufthansa are starting to block off the rear seats of their NEO fleet in order to keep within C of G envelopes. Quite disturbing as well
I'm referring to commercial passenger aircraft, two man crew, no flight engineer, easy to maintain.
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Re: What really brought down the Boeing 737 Max?

Unread post by GL » Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:29 am

What is wrong with this statement -
"The reason the 2 Maxes crashed is because the pilots did not have the insight or experience to recognise a trim runaway and deal with it fast enough."
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Re: What really brought down the Boeing 737 Max?

Unread post by Volo » Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:35 am

GL wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:29 am
What is wrong with this statement -
"The reason the 2 Maxes crashed is because the pilots did not have the insight or experience to recognise a trim runaway and deal with it fast enough."
I would say that the first Max crash (Indonesia) was because the pilots did not understand what the problem was and if they were briefed it was not adequate .
The second accident it seems that the pilots were thoroughly briefed but did not follow the procedures to disable the trim . They may not have followed the procedures because they still did not understand the flaw in the software .
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Re: What really brought down the Boeing 737 Max?

Unread post by eddy » Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:45 am

GL wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:29 am
What is wrong with this statement -
"The reason the 2 Maxes crashed is because the pilots did not have the insight or experience to recognise a trim runaway and deal with it fast enough."
Because the problem did not manifest itself as trim runaway.
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