Open Letter to the Community

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rynopot
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Re: Open Letter to the Community

Unread post by rynopot » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:09 am

I am going to keep this short and try to get to the root of the disrespect issues on social media.

Computers came along and corrupted our morals and values: since the beginning of the PC, people stole / handed out / unofficially rented out software to friends / family. Windows / office / games - anything went. This forced software providers to do the Activation of Software, etc. etc. So the average man on the street had NO issue with stealing software - the problem was something called a disc / Cd being removable from the PC.
Then, along came social media, where people could raise their own (informed OR useless) opinions : and in the age where we have low standards of parenting, and kids being told they are right, even when they are wrong - we had idiots widely handing out their point of views, however relevant / irrelevant.

Being taught to be respectful, I was amazed at how people will get personal and throw insults, on social media, to others with a different perspective. Something simple like having a different rugby / football team you support. International players being called homosexual because of a missed kick or a bad game. You've seen it all I suppose.
And I think it all comes down to a lack of tolerance for difference. It's like people hooting at drivers turning in front of them - unless that person did not signal, I just DO NOT get that.

I was thinking about a cause for the aggression; and I came up with a weird possible reason. I think it is the same reason for Road Rage and so many other issues. I have a suspicion that it may have something to do with the over-population on the planet (the disrespect on social media is a world wide issue). Because most of us do not physically compete for resources like water and food on a daily basis, we are competing for other "resources" (like space on our roads, respect of peers, acknowledgement of others). We stay animals and at the end of the day we have animal instincts, so I have a feeling this could all be down to animal instincts.

[I studied a little bit of Psychology , Sociology - but not nearly enough to pass as an expert. this is just AN opinion... Please allow me to have my opinion. :D ]
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Re: Open Letter to the Community

Unread post by wazzerweezel » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:41 am

Right, I believe I am opening myself up for heaps of criticism, attacks, snide remarks etc. but I am a big boy with a thick skin and am going to post this anyway.

I used to love the Idea of AVCOM. When I joined I had this idealistic view that I had found an online platform which would connect me with fellow aviation enthusiasts and fellow aviators. Boy was I mistaken. I have since experienced AVCOM as a place where people get attacked for no reason and snide remarks are the order of the day every day.

This has caused me to drift away from AVCOM. Where initially I wanted to read every post and be as active as possible I can honestly say I only use AVCOM for the job section. Even though it is also littered with horrible comments displaying a rarely seen level of "unprofessional-ism" I find that it still gets the job done (pardon the pun). I have used it successfully to both advertise and apply for positions. Sadly that is where I stop.

I just don't bother going to other forums or threads as I quite simply do not need that negativity in my life.

Honestly people, I stand back, astounded at some of the comments that get posted. Then I try to fathom why this is being allowed. I am a member of numerous online forums that are not aviation related but related to other interest I have and never have I encountered this problem. Do you want to know why? As soon as you post something that is disrespectful or can be seen as a direct attack your post gets deleted. You get a warning from a moderator and should it happen again your account and privileges are removed. So please do not try and convince me it is not possible to have a platform where we are civil to each other. I can even refer you to a few posts on this very site where a wise old legend or two managed to correct someone in such a manor that the person did not feel offended or that they were being attacked but rather being given some good solid advice.

I am all for free speech and getting your point across as long as it is done in a friendly manner. In fact, a favorite quote of mine is: "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." That does not mean you should say it in such a manner as to belittle everyone else.

I can already hear some of the people reacting to this by saying ""What do you know? You hardly ever post". My response, I have only posted a handful of times on AVCOM and the reason is simple. I am not a scared introvert that has nothing to say. I have on many occasions had an opinion or even some advice I wanted to give. Then I think of how my post would be dissected by some and all the negativity that will come from people attacking my possible different view. I then think to myself, why bother?

This truly saddens me, because if I feel this way and an open letter has to be sent out to remind everyone to be civil it means there are others out there that probably feel the same way I feel. Think of all the wonderfully diverse viewpoints going lost by people not wanting to post. All the valuable advice from experienced people that is not being given for the same reason.

Lastly I want to speak directly to the powers that be. Last time I checked, you have the authority to remove any post and/or member that causes trouble. Perhaps if more trouble makers are removed we would not have this problem. The fact that this open letter had to be re-posted is proof enough that there are many out there.

I am not saying we should all agree on everything. Not at all, I implore anyone that has a different point of view or that does not agree with a post to say so. Just do it in a civil manner.
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Re: Open Letter to the Community

Unread post by Mauler » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:50 pm

wazzerweezel wrote:I am not a scared introvert that has nothing to say. I have on many occasions had an opinion or even some advice I wanted to give. Then I think of how my post would be dissected by some and all the negativity that will come from people attacking my possible different view.
I don't get it. Why proffer an opinion in a thriving discussion forum - and then expect it to NOT be discussed?

It is a learning experience and actually a sign of respect that people even bother to read what you post, think about it, and offer an analysis that is possibly contrary to your own views. Everybody here has their own views, they are very likely to be biased towards their own views, but by proffering them they are also putting their views out there to be dissected!

Anyone who thinks that posting their views is always going to be met with warm, fawning responses is deluded. Not everyone supports the same rugby team, supports the same god or likes the same beer or whisky.

The line is only drawn when the arguer falls into the trap of attacking the person when he has difficulty dealing with his opinion.
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Re: Open Letter to the Community

Unread post by wazzerweezel » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:05 pm

Mauler wrote: I don't get it. Why proffer an opinion in a thriving discussion forum - and then expect it to NOT be discussed?

It is a learning experience and actually a sign of respect that people even bother to read what you post, think about it, and offer an analysis that is possibly contrary to your own views. Everybody here has their own views, they are very likely to be biased towards their own views, but by proffering them they are also putting their views out there to be dissected!

Anyone who thinks that posting their views is always going to be met with warm, fawning responses is deluded. Not everyone supports the same rugby team, supports the same god or likes the same beer or whisky.

The line is only drawn when the arguer falls into the trap of attacking the person when he has difficulty dealing with his opinion.
I agree completely agree to what you are saying and should perhaps amend my previous statement. I am not apposed to views differing from mine at all, nor do I wish to receive only warm and fawning responses. I fully hope that people will respond with differing views, I also would expect people to reply passionately when topics they feel strongly about are discussed.

In short, it is not the dissecting of my post that bothers me. Only the way these views and opinions are expressed. I will admit you said it better than I:
Mauler wrote:The line is only drawn when the arguer falls into the trap of attacking the person when he has difficulty dealing with his opinion.
It has just been my experience that too many people fall into the trap you mentioned above and in some cases not so much fall but charges straight into it.
"Do or do not, there is no try." - Yoda
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Re: Open Letter to the Community

Unread post by Vogoff » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:22 pm

rynopot wrote:Computers came along and corrupted our morals and values...

...I was thinking about a cause for the aggression; and I came up with a weird possible reason. I think it is the same reason for Road Rage and so many other issues...
In the beginning there was Usenet... Uh, okay, before that there were bulletin boards, but just knowing that shows how much of my life I have spent online. :? Anyway I digress...

I don't think computers corrupted our morals and values. Rather they let us reveal who we really are. Online forums have always been messy, noisy, contentious places where the trolls can thrive and social mores are discarded.

I believe the reasons are the same as the causes of road rage - when we can hide behind our anonymity and can "other" people on the opposing side it becomes easy to forget about the impact our words may have. There was a sports journalist in the US who did an interesting experiment: he tracked down some of the most vile and hateful commentators on his articles, turned up at their door and asked them why they would say such things. Without fail, when confronted by a real human, they would say how it was just a little joke and they didn't really mean it and how sorry they were. These "little jokes" were rape threats or other threats of physical harm, so not something most of us would consider funny if we were on the receiving end.

For what it is worth, I have found Avcom quite benign by online standards. The mods do a good job of ensuring we behave ourselves without being too intrusive. They might not always be perfect, but they do a better job than I would.

I have spent too much of my adult life online, I have seen what happens when forums are overrun by bullies and indignant keyboard activists. I know Avcom can get a little, uhm, robust at times. But on balance I think it works pretty well.
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Re: Open Letter to the Community

Unread post by SaraLima » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:29 am

Vogoff wrote:I know Avcom can get a little, uhm, robust at times. But on balance I think it works pretty well.
Hi Matt.. I'm pretty much in alignment with that comment of yours.. :smt045
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Re: Open Letter to the Community

Unread post by HJK 414 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:52 pm

SaraLima wrote:
Vogoff wrote:I know Avcom can get a little, uhm, robust at times. But on balance I think it works pretty well.
Hi Matt.. I'm pretty much in alignment with that comment of yours.. :smt045
You have a another vote ..... + 1.

JK
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Re: Open Letter to the Community

Unread post by Iceberg » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:14 pm

+1 Avcom is not for sissies. :twisted:
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Re: Open Letter to the Community

Unread post by Marius Schrenk » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:20 pm

Iceberg wrote:+1 Avcom is not for sissies. :twisted:
=D> =D> :wink:
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Re: Open Letter to the Community

Unread post by Whirly » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:32 pm

Iceberg wrote:+1 Avcom is not for sissies. :twisted:
It is mostly for (us) chopper pilots........................................but occasionally we allow others to say a word or two! :twisted:

So tow the line! :smt021

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Re: Open Letter to the Community

Unread post by jimdavis » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:22 pm

Iceberg wrote:+1 Avcom is not for sissies. :twisted:
Isn't that what this thread is meant to be about?

Some more timid folks, and often newer pilots, are scared to comment or ask questions - shouldn't we be treating them with respect - rather than thinking they are sissies?

You don't need to be a sissy to be polite and courteous.

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Re: Open Letter to the Community

Unread post by Marius Schrenk » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:27 pm

Jim it took me about 2 years of lurking before I made a move. :oops: However by then I knew not to mention "low flying" ever. :roll:
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Re: Open Letter to the Community

Unread post by Iceberg » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:29 pm

jimdavis wrote:
Iceberg wrote:+1 Avcom is not for sissies. :twisted:
Isn't that what this thread is meant to be about?

Some more timid folks, and often newer pilots, are scared to comment or ask questions - shouldn't we be treating them with respect - rather than thinking they are sissies?

You don't need to be a sissy to be polite and courteous.

Jim
Agree Jim, refer to smiley at the end of my one-liner. :wink:
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Re: Open Letter to the Community

Unread post by SaraLima » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:01 pm

jimdavis wrote: Some more timid folks, and often newer pilots, are scared to comment or ask questions - shouldn't we be treating them with respect - rather than thinking they are sissies?

You don't need to be a sissy to be polite and courteous.

Jim
Hi Jim.. I'm not fully in agreement with your comment, quite simply because a polite contrary comment is still a contrary comment, and even a courteous rebuttal is still a rebuttal.. so if people are too timid to take even a courteous rebuttal on the chin, and then make the effort to justify their stance, there is no way that we can encourage them further.

I agree that we should treat people with respect, but to defer to others and stifle our own comments simply because the OP may be a "timid folk" is very likely to dampen the "robust debate" on AVCom - which can be very fruitful at times. Too much deference simply for the sake of deference could possibly degrade the very essence of AVCom.. A forum of Aviators and Aviation enthusiasts exchanging ideas.

It has nothing to do with being a "sissy", but has everything to do with being personally able (and "morally fibrous" enough) to participate in idea exchanges and debate - which by its very definition allows for opposing points of view. (and the occasional chirp)

I think what I am trying to say is, to quote Matt, "I know Avcom can get a little, uhm, robust at times. But on balance I think it works pretty well..."
And I think that what Roger intended with his original post, was not to create a whole new forum of totally obsequious and PC members, he was merely trying to calm some of the "robustness" by reducing its "personal" and sometimes acrimonious edge - don't you agree?
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Re: Open Letter to the Community

Unread post by jimdavis » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:28 pm

OK folks I can think of no better examples of gentlemanly, robust debate than employed by the British MP, Jacob Rees-Mog.

What a masterful and brilliant politician he is - and in my view - likely to become their next Prime Minister. Well I hope so anyway.

Watch a couple of minutes of any Youtube clip of his and you will see what I mean.

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